Should a Parameter Guide BOOK for M50 be supplied?

[NuSkoolTone]

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I'm amazed that this post has had nearly 1000 views - and only 33 people have 'voted'!

I've said it before, & I'll say it again - having to read the parameter guide on the computer SUCKS... you can't even read one page clearly at a time.

Having to scroll backwards & forwards is a complete pain in the a***

Please respond in the affirmative Korg/Jerry/anyone!!!

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Couldn't agree more!

It seems this is a disturbing "trend". I had a gig this weekend and my guitar player bought himself one of the new QSC Monitors. They gave their own names to what the switches on the back do like "Vocal boost" so we looked in the box for the manual to see WTF that means. What do we find? A CD that says "User Manual" How does THAT help us at a GIG? If it was critical we would have been SCREWED!

Let's get back down to what it REALLY boils down to:

Cost of a CD: Pennies
Cost of a Manual or two: DOLLARS.

No one's fooled here! The environment is a convenient excuse!

[mocando]

While I don't want to waste paper, I think a printed PG should be provided upon asking to korg. BUT, it should be provided on a 3 ring binder instead of a glued manual. They are much much easier to leave open, and it can be updated when new firmware adds functionality.

That's what I'm doing right now, printing the PG on dual sided pages and going to stick it inside a binder.

[jpscoey]

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Yeh, the argument about saving paper is a 'red herring' if ever there was one.

Ok, Korg sell a lot of gear around the world - but it's in the thousands, not the millions.

When you take a look at the junk mail crap that lands on your doorstep every morning, the numbers pale into insignificance.

Producing a guide book will not affect the environment anymore than 'joe public' not recycling the stuff they should do!

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[mocando]

Yup. You got yourself a point. Is not that all a massified product. But as they say, every little bit helps.

My "custom binded" parameter guide is looking great so far. I suggest you do the same, you won't regret it.

[jpscoey]

My "custom binded" parameter guide is looking great so far. I suggest you do the same, you won't regret it.

Can you send me a copy? !!!

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[mocando]

Can you send me a copy? !!!

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JAJAJAJAJA that's a good one. I believe in shipping to the UK alone would cost more than the paper and laser printer toner I'm using

[MartinHines]

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I'm amazed that this post has had nearly 1000 views - and only 33 people have 'voted'!

I've said it before, & I'll say it again - having to read the parameter guide on the computer SUCKS... you can't even read one page clearly at a time.

I didn't vote because you really need a third option: users who want a paper manual buy it at full "one-off" cost (probably $100 including shipping), which would have to be done by the Korg Country Distributor.

Here are the reasons I assume Korg Japan has stopped printing paper versions of the Parameter Guides:
1) The majority of owners don't read them

2) there is a real cost in automatically including them. I would assume that Korg Japan has manuals printed in batch runs, probably 1,000 copies at a run (to get some type of cost effectiveness). Let's say the manual costs them $40 per copy. While that may not sound like that much for a $1,500 plus cost keyboard, MI companies like Korg try to minimize ALL of their costs to help keep prices as low as possible.

Once a company decides to not print a specific manual (and put the manual in every box at the factory during manufacturing), it isn't cheap to have manuals printed later in small quantities.

Perhaps Korg (or even one of you people) could investigate having the manual printed by one of these self-publishing companies like "Blurb":
http://www.blurb.com/
(of course, the website above quotes a price of $186 for a book with 400+ pages).

Here is another one (who has a minimum order quantity of 10 books):
http://www.48hrbooks.com/

Realistically, companies like Korg probably assume if you really want a paper parameter guide manual, you will go to a copy shop and have one made.

[NuSkoolTone]

I didn't vote because you really need a third option: users who want a paper manual buy it at full "one-off" cost (probably $100 including shipping), which would have to be done by the Korg Country Distributor.

Here are the reasons I assume Korg Japan has stopped printing paper versions of the Parameter Guides:
1) The majority of owners don't read them

2) there is a real cost in automatically including them. I would assume that Korg Japan has manuals printed in batch runs, probably 1,000 copies at a run (to get some type of cost effectiveness). Let's say the manual costs them $40 per copy. While that may not sound like that much for a $1,500 plus cost keyboard, MI companies like Korg try to minimize ALL of their costs to help keep prices as low as possible.

Once a company decides to not print a specific manual (and put the manual in every box at the factory during manufacturing), it isn't cheap to have manuals printed later in small quantities.

Perhaps Korg (or even one of you people) could investigate having the manual printed by one of these self-publishing companies like "Blurb":
http://www.blurb.com/
(of course, the website above quotes a price of $186 for a book with 400+ pages).

Here is another one (who has a minimum order quantity of 10 books):
http://www.48hrbooks.com/

Realistically, companies like Korg probably assume if you really want a paper parameter guide manual, you will go to a copy shop and have one made.

Martin to Korg's rescue as usual.

Come on dude. Points 1 & 2 are valid. The 3rd option being $100 for a manual? Are you out of your freakin mind? The concept that you find that a sane option says volumes about your "perspective". Same goes for the assumption that the BUYER should go to a copy shop to get a REAL Manual!

The 3rd Option should have been: "Available FOC on request".
That would have been the PROPER solution. PERIOD.

I've been buying synths for over 20 years, and just NOW am I finding ones without FULL documentation included. Simply because the technology exists to give these companies an excuse.

The irony to ME for these manuals is: The information in the manual GIVEN is freakin OBVIOUS beginner stuff that honestly you can figure out just by pushing the buttons! The stuff that isn't so obvious is in the manual that's NOT printed! That's the stuff you actually have to open the book for and say WTF does THAT mean?

[mocando]

Korg is simply doing what every technology company have been doing in the later years. We used to buy a Laptop with recovery CDs or DVDs in the box. Now the data is on a separate partition in the computer's hard disk. IF, you want a "hard copy", then you make your own.

[MartinHines]

Martin to Korg's rescue as usual.

Come on dude. Points 1 & 2 are valid. The 3rd option being $100 for a manual? Are you out of your freakin mind?

OK. Please do some research and find out how much it would cost you to have ONE 400+ page manual printed and bound (similar in quality to the Korg manuals). Then add the cost of shipping from New Jersey across the U.S. Then add some type of cost for handling (since someone has to box up the product and get it ready for shipping).

If $100 total cost for printing, handling, and shipping of a manual is high, then SHOW me some real numbers from a real printing company.

The concept that you find that a sane option says volumes about your "perspective". Same goes for the assumption that the BUYER should go to a copy shop to get a REAL Manual!

I personally would like Korg Japan to include paper copies of all manuals in their boxes, but I would be willing to pay a higher price. This of course would mean a higher price for everyone.

The 3rd Option should have been: "Available FOC on request".
That would have been the PROPER solution. PERIOD.

Your 3rd option might not be much cheaper than having the manual included in the first place. First, Korg would have to print some "run" of manuals, and hopefully not print too many. Second, there would be a additional cost of sending out manuals individually.

I've been buying synths for over 20 years, and just NOW am I finding ones without FULL documentation included. Simply because the technology exists to give these companies an excuse.

You probably ALSO want MI companies to sell their products at the cheapest prices possible. I have seen your post over the years where you complain about how expensive keyboards are. Well, every little item/part adds up to the total cost you pay, including the additional cost of printing manuals.

Just FYI, synths are significantly less expensive now than they were 20 years ago.

Here is another "excuse" for you -- given advances in plastics most current keyboards use a lot of plastic versus alot of metal 20 years ago. This also allows keyboards to be built at a lower relative cost than 20 years ago. EVERYTHING costs money, and Korg Japan has decided to go in this direction (not printing out every manual).

Also, what about the wasted use of resources? If the vast majority of owners never use the manuals, is it acceptable for a company to print out 400+ page manuals?

The irony to ME for these manuals is: The information in the manual GIVEN is freakin OBVIOUS beginner stuff that honestly you can figure out just by pushing the buttons! The stuff that isn't so obvious is in the manual that's NOT printed! That's the stuff you actually have to open the book for and say WTF does THAT mean?

If you want a paper copy of the Parameter Guide, it is THAT difficult to read it online, or go to your local Kinko's copies and have it printed out?

Korg is not alone here. Most companies selling products that have manuals with hundreds of pages are either not printing them at all, or create two manuals, a small paper overview manual which is printed, and an electronic reference manual.

In summary, I still like MY "third option" best -- Korg provides paper manuals for sale, just like any other accessory. Of course, just like other accessories, when "push comes to shove", many users will decide they just don't want to pay the extra money.

[jpscoey]

If $100 total cost for printing, handling, and shipping of a manual is high, then SHOW me some real numbers from a real printing company.

I'm not sure if I'm seeing things right here - did you put an extra '0' when you meant to say $10 ? - even that's on the high side for a print-run of several thousand
(especially for the 'quality' of the manuals provided by Korg)

For a full $100 you could get a top-class, full-colour hardback book... the cost is in the 'setting up' of the initial copy - after that it costs next-to-nothing to produce a 'run'.

Don't get me wrong - I love Korg as a company, and will continue to buy their great products, but this is an issue which I consider to be unacceptable.

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[NuSkoolTone]

I have seen your post over the years where you complain about how expensive keyboards are. Well, every little item/part adds up to the total cost you pay, including the additional cost of printing manuals.

Nice way to call me a cheapskate dude. The only boards I have complained about where the OA$Y$ and the Kurz PC3 when it first came out. Kurzweil then realized they are NOT the Kurzweil from 1992 and brought their prices in line to compete.

Also, what about the wasted use of resources? If the vast majority of owners never use the manuals, is it acceptable for a company to print out 400+ page manuals?

Covered MANY times in this thread already.

If you want a paper copy of the Parameter Guide, it is THAT difficult to read it online, or go to your local Kinko's copies and have it printed out?

In a word, YES. It is a PAIN in the ass! Perhaps you just play with presets and don't need to read your manual to get the most out of sound design for your instrument. One of the points of this thread is bigger than the concept of being forced to go to "kinko's" to print out a manual for what is still a PROFESSIONAL instrument. It makes me feel like I bought my keyboard at Walmart. I don't get that feeling from Yamaha!

Tell me Martin, did you have to "Print up" any manuals for your OASYS at kinko's? I mean regardless of the keyboard cost, it's about being efficient and being environmentally responsible right?

Just the fact that we have to spend THIS much time to get a proper f*ck*ng manual is insane!

[MartinHines]

I'm not sure if I'm seeing things right here - did you put an extra '0' when you meant to say $10 ? - even that's on the high side for a print-run of several thousand
(especially for the 'quality' of the manuals provided by Korg)[

For a full $100 you could get a top-class, full-colour hardback book... the cost is in the 'setting up' of the initial copy - after that it costs next-to-nothing to produce a 'run'.

I was talking about a printing run of ONE copy.

I am still looking for the REAL cost of printing a 419 page manual, with paper and binding similar to the Korg manuals. I sincerely doubt the cost is only $10 each.

Can you show me some specific, real numbers about printing costs? I honestly don't know how much money would have to be spent on printing.

For the moment, suppose Korg could buy manuals for $10 each if they have a "run" of 100 copies. What happens if only a handful of people buy one? Korg then has to "eat" the cost of the other manuals.

I don't get that feeling from Yamaha!

Give it time. Yamaha may also decide not to print all of their manuals, especially if they have a "detailed" manual over 400 pages long.

Also, Yamaha keyboards lately are more expensive than Korg keyboards. Your Motif XS7 keyboard MAP is $3200, while the corresponding Korg M3-73 is $ 2300. Yamaha can AFFORD to print out all manuals when they charge $900 more for a keyboard.

Tell me Martin, did you have to "Print up" any manuals for your OASYS at kinko's? I mean regardless of the keyboard cost, it's about being efficient and being environmentally responsible right?

I did think it was wrong for Korg to not include paper copies of all manuals in the OASYS, but I thought they should provide an option to buy a manual if desired.

All companies are currently struggling with the issue. I suppose if enough people complain about wanting a full set of paper manuals, Korg might change their mind.

[Moonshine]

I voted yes. I really don't have any "new" opinions to add to this discussion but having the printed one with LE has been much more useful than the one with the M50 in my computer.
On the other hand I do understand the criticism about wasting paper and that there are many users who don't ever even read the manuals.
It's a dilemma and not printing the PG was Korg's solution

[Moonunit59]

I disagree. It shouldn't take an engineering degree from MIT just to save a file. There are basic functions that you need to perform with any synthesizer. Second, not everyone can dedicate space to keep their instruments and computer together.

Part of the problem is the manual is poorly written.

For example, let's take the basic function of saving to media.

The manual tells me:

How to save data.

Access the Media-Save page, and selct the appropriate menu command according to the data the saving to media.

For details, on saving please see "0-2": Save" on page 260 of the Parameter Guide.

Now I have print out the pages on saving media.

This is just for saving a file.

And they don't have to put the all the parameters in the manual.. just the basics. And they won't be killing anymore trees because they could print it on recycled paper.

I've worked with synthesizers for 25 years and computers for at least 20 so I am not a technophobe.

I vote NO. The world doesn't need any more 410 page manuals printed on dead trees!

Here are my suggestions:

1. buy a laptop
2. find something better to do in bed and on trains
3. Forget manuals entirely. You're a musician not an IT guy!
4. It's a musical instrument. Play it! don't play with it!
5. Print the manual yourself (leave it printing overnight)

Always remember the old adage:"If you need to refer to the manual .... you've already lost!"