Which synth engines are missing?

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:52 pm

Link wrote:No Z1 mentioned yet? I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Of course I know the story of that engine, and chances of getting it back are slimmer than spiders web, but then again, I also have dreams about lottery win allowing me to get Kronos and somebody always get lottery win.

Most of the MOSS models are covered. For example, STR-1 covers Plucked String modelling (it may also cover the Comb-Filtering), EP-1 covers the Electric Piano modelling, CX-3 covers Organ modelling, MOD-7 covers both VPM and Cross Modulation, AL-1/MS20/Poly6 covers Standard Subtractive (analogue) and Osc Sync and Ring Mod.

Which leaves just....

• Multi-band Resonance - effectively 4 x band-pass filters, which I'm sure you'll be able to emulate in some way.
• Brass Osc [three Brass types, plus two Horn types, and a Reed Brass] - this certainly isn't modelled, but HD-1 or other samples may be enough.
• Reed [five different Sax types, plus two Double-Reed types, a Bassoon, Clarinet, two Flute types, a Pan Flute, Ocarina, Shakuhachi, two Harmonica types, and a Reed Synth] - again, not modelled, but HD-1 or other PCM samples may be ok.
• Bowed String Osc - again, HD-1 or samples could work. AL-1 can also be employed for analogue-esque strings.

.... of the MOSS that isn't directly covered.

It's a shame that (particularly) Brass and Reed aren't physically modelled as I loved their sounds on the Moss, but PCM samples may cover the lack of them. But all the other MOSS models are heavily covered by Kronos and blow them right out of the water.

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:16 pm

ep0ch wrote:Most obvious synth engine that is missing is VSTi. I'd love to have Loomer Strings on that thing.

Hi

VSTi is not a synth, is a standar to make software (synths in that case) but VST is a standard from Steinberg (now Yamaha)
The VST standard is great for instruments/effects on PC/Mac/Linux but its inefficient for the need of a host.
Also a lot of VSTi use excesive CPU/RAM power only becoz the computer has it and they are inefficien on their ressource requeriments, imagine a huge VSTi running on an Intel Atom , lol...

KORG has made a little OS (using a small layer over a minimun Linux kernel, like the OASYS, I suppose) to have access to all the horsepower of the hardware. And the main difference on a hardware synth and a windows/linux/osx based synth is on the programming, the last ones are designed to work on machines over a huge OS and other applications and with variables resources.

Having VSTi maybe woud only make problems about resources and lack of good programming... but in the other hand, you have a really fine tuned hardware/software combo with almost all the kind of synths engines you may want
Seriuoslly, 9 synth besides 1 to 3 on the competition.. and still are people moaning about the lack of synths engines!!!!! xD

Regards
Alvaro.

Link · Post by **Link** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:51 pm

ozy wrote:beating my dead horse (maybe somehow hoping it will start making trombone noises)

physical modeling of brass and winds is missing once again.

And I don't mean the "all-corners-cut" prophecy version.

Come on, Korg... 17 years late...

And of course (but that's a hardware-related issue, so, it's not something which can easily be corrected):

how happens a cottage (if not garage) firm like DSI can make digital/analog hybrid synths and Korg once again includes just an ms-20 "visual replica" in its flagship?

Come on, who needs better sampled stratocasters when you can't put a fender emulation through a real analogue filter or ring modulator?

THAT'S a keyboard thing, not playing fake guitars...

[On a related note: I tried the Clavia nord stage. It hasn't a frigging pedal wha!!!

It's even mentioned in the manual: "there's a auto-wha function, but in case you need a pedal-wha for your wurly of clavinet, connect an external unit". Come on... ]

Aaa! Its the Mr. Contradiction at it agin: Blowing what ever imaginable negative fud out of his trombone. But this time the forum lobbying is actually very admirable piece of work, as there is rather small amount of things to believably nag about at this many feature at this low price point. I wish you strength at the hard work you have chosen to do.

"Come on, Korg... 17 years late..."
Come on, forum lobbyist, get over with it, Kronos has MANY things, that others don't have....well to think of it, others only have one thing at almost same price. (except Kurzweil, PC3 FTW!!!)

Yes, I too, would like to have absolutely everything in the universe, but as even spoiled brats have to learn some day, its not possible. Especially at the sameish price, that Yamaha is trying to offer their practically "all corners cutting" sample playback -only engine. How much do others offer at 3000$. Motif? Hm? The most limited synth "engine" at higher end priced synths, and thats it.

"And I don't mean the "all-corners-cut" prophecy version. "

Z1's wind instruments models were not bad. They were more numerous, and they at least had a this thing called polyphony, and talking about cutting corners, the models that Yamaha could offer into their workstations, had to be decreased into meager single oscillator and you could only fit three of these @ 300$/piece...well until they took even that away from their modern mellotrons.

"THAT'S a keyboard thing, not playing fake guitars... "
And trombone is...?

robinkle · Post by **robinkle** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:48 pm

Do the Kronos have a Vocoder, can the VA-1 work as a Vocoder?

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:03 pm

robinkle wrote:Do the Kronos have a Vocoder, can the VA-1 work as a Vocoder?

In Korg workstations, vocoder is typically provided as an insert effect.

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:40 pm

The RADIAS (built from the AL-1) and EXB-RADIAS had a MUCH better vocoder than the insert effect and I'm hoping that's the case here.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:44 pm

I recall watching a video where an OASYS user was working with a very good vocoder within the OASYS. I think it was insert effect based but had more bands than the typical Triton/M3 vocoder or even the RADIAS.

found it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4K1Jk2FFNE

ep0ch · Post by **ep0ch** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:51 pm

Ozz wrote:
Hi

VSTi is not a synth, is a standar to make software (synths in that case) but VST is a standard from Steinberg (now Yamaha)
The VST standard is great for instruments/effects on PC/Mac/Linux but its inefficient for the need of a host.
Also a lot of VSTi use excesive CPU/RAM power only becoz the computer has it and they are inefficien on their ressource requeriments, imagine a huge VSTi running on an Intel Atom , lol...

KORG has made a little OS (using a small layer over a minimun Linux kernel, like the OASYS, I suppose) to have access to all the horsepower of the hardware. And the main difference on a hardware synth and a windows/linux/osx based synth is on the programming, the last ones are designed to work on machines over a huge OS and other applications and with variables resources.

Having VSTi maybe woud only make problems about resources and lack of good programming... but in the other hand, you have a really fine tuned hardware/software combo with almost all the kind of synths engines you may want
Seriuoslly, 9 synth besides 1 to 3 on the competition.. and still are people moaning about the lack of synths engines!!!!! xD

Regards
Alvaro.

I know it's not a synth. you know what i was getting at though. being able to play VSTi would be a killer feature. Even if it's just simple vstis.

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:21 pm

@epoch

Even the Yamaha (owners of Steingberg, creator of VST standard) Motif XF dont let you play VSTi, but import as samples from a MOTIF utility, becoz the VST are created to use resources on a multipurpose-OS PC, someones draining massives amount of CPU/RAM resources.

maybe some VST could compromise the stability of the system or be limited for the architecture of the system... imagine having just a few notes of polyphony (its an intel atom, remember) on a VST that sound "just the same" like the HD-1 or AL-1.. its ridiculous.

The VST are designed to do the "same" of a single-purporse machine like a synth on a multipupose machine like a PC... yep someones are great and sound amazing, but if you wanna use VST at their best, buy a PC with a power CPU or a Windows/Linux based synth

Again, its an Atom CPU in a custom OS, there are VST that made do suffer even a Core2Duo and i5, and you need a Core2Quad and i7 to have a good polyphony and stability comparable to a synth (not only programs, also combi and seq/song modes)

Regards.
Alvaro.

tarek · Post by **tarek** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:56 pm

back to the topic and away from the sample player (motif)....beside the Z1 engine also the MMT engine is missing...its a very advanced VA engine devloped by korg and it powers the RADIAS ..and R3 hope will have as an add on with the z1 engine in further updates to kronos..than it will be the dream mean machine.!!!

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:09 pm

tarek wrote:back to the topic and away from the sample player (motif)....beside the Z1 engine also the MMT engine is missing...its a very advanced VA engine devloped by korg and it powers the RADIAS ..and R3 hope will have as an add on with the z1 engine in further updates to kronos..than it will be the dream mean machine.!!!

As has already been discussed here, whilst there is no 'Z1' engine nor 'MMT' or 'RADIAS' engine in KRONOS, the functionality is almost entirely covered by the existing synth engines, so the liklyhood of Korg even considering it is low, and the actual usefulness of such an engine (because of the aforementioned overlap) is likely to be low too.

Link · Post by **Link** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:46 pm

Yes, I should add to my comments, that I don't think there is much missing on Kronos. At least analog modelling is well catered. I also would chose something new instead of old models, if I could only chose one engine more.

But my dream is, that the Oasys' idea of expanding the instrument came back on Kronos. And chosing from all kinds of classic engines would be a childhood dream of candy shop to have, and Z1 is on top of that list. Besides of adding one more analog modelling, Z1 would add, perhaps the most obviously missing feature: wind instrument modelling, as well as many others too.

Idea of morphing sounds have always intigued me so much, that I have almost bought an expensive instrument because of that feature alone. I'd love to see morphing synth, that would consist of 4 oscillators and where you could build the structure of synth that all of those oscillators would share. Then you could morph between the different values of those oscillatos with vector joystick(not just cross fade).

Also a Clavias Nord Modular kind of synth would be awesome, awesome addition!!! And sample mangling in VA engine would be welcomed with open arms.

Even if it wouldn't be possible to play several of them at the same time, perhaps we could add more instruments into SGX-1, or make couple of SGX-engines more(SGX-2 etc...). That guitar vst would make it very easy to market Kronos, for as perverse as it is, syths are often marketed in particular with guitar sounds in front. Orchestral sounds could also use their own SGX-engine.

Also how about preventing Rolands next coming with implementing V-Synth like synth, although that might be a bit too much to ask, and I don't mind getting next V-Synth(or Fantoms successor with V-Synth included).

More effects.

muziksculp · Post by **muziksculp** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:59 pm

Adding 'VECTOR Synthesis' to the KRONOS synth engine would be fantastic, for creating dynamically morphing pads, and ambiances.

Something similar to the Korg-Wavestation !

peter m. mahr · Post by **peter m. mahr** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:01 pm

It is there.

muziksculp · Post by **muziksculp** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:04 pm

peter m. mahr wrote:It is there.

Vector Synthesis ? If that's what you are referring to, then this is fantastic !

Now, I just have to evaluate the acoustic sounds, and future sample library expansion options for the KRONOS. (Orchestral Strings, Orch.Brass, Orch. Woodwinds, Guitars, World Instruments & Perc., Choirs, etc. )

Thanks.