Pa3x or Tyros 4

Discussion relating to the Korg Pa3X Arranger.

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karmathanever
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Post by karmathanever »

Nedim wrote:What they dont know is that almost NOTHING can be done on the synths, without a PC and XG Works you basically cant do anything while with Korg that is not the case...everything is open. Once one really gets into Yamaha and tried to do things then i will see how much they like it.
I will not bore you with repetition of my views but you can add "Live Performance" to Nedim's list - just go set up a Tyros 3,4 or whatever for live performance - it just doesn't hack it. (Now I'll shutup)

Pete :wink:
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mrniceneasy
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Post by mrniceneasy »

My two penneth worth on Korg and Yamaha. I've had most popular Brands of keyboards over the years and the best of the best have been pa2x and Tyros 3 and I've owned these 2 particular monsters side by side. I've had plenty of time to study them both. OK it has been said that the Yamaha in general lacks the in depth features and controls that we enjoy on the pa2x and I totally agree with that sentiment, however, virtually everything, for me personally, that can be done on pa2x can in fact be done partially on the Yamaha OS and mostly using 3rd party software on the pc. Now here's the rub, there is a whole host of Yamaha Enthusiast programs out there from several Developers, Michael Bedesem, Jos Maas, Heiko Plate, Jorgen Sorensen, Peter Wierzba and Kim Whinter to name the most prominent of them and all free I might add, that enable you to do virtually anything and this is because the Yamaha software is accessible to them. Korg have been refusing to help third party Developers for years now, Baboosh is a prime example who all but cracked the software but ended up banging his head against the inevitable Korg brick wall through lack of essential information. Another 'small' thing that has been mentioned by several prominent people on this Forum - The sounds. Yamaha have in general murdered Korg on this and I don't see the next generation being even close to it. I'm not stuck on 'Brand Specific' and so I choose what suits be best at the time and at this time the T3 suits me better because now I just want to listen to great sounds out of the box and Korg although great can't imho compete with that. I gigged Yamaha keyboards for several years and Tyros 1 being 4 1/2 years of that and I never found it lacking. I earned a living from it no-one ever said they didn't like the sounds that were coming from it.
The rub of it all is that Korg quite simple have NOT listened to it's Users, I know they did the 'Survey' last year and we all put in our views and requirements and have they listened - NO- not a chance. They've just added to the pa3x making it a high class Karaoke machine with add-ons that the majority of us wouldn't have even asked for in the first place. I'm sorry to say this but for me Yamaha has won the day and you all know how much I was into the pa2x. Just being totally open here! :roll:

Just my opinions and not meant to upset or en-flame the Korg faithful and I most sincerely hope that Korg look at this thread and get their act together. Somehow, in my heart, I don't think they will listen, they never have before 8)
Regards, Keith [pa1000]
www.korgpahelper.yolasite.com/
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karmathanever
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Post by karmathanever »

Hi Keith - great to hear from someone who, like me, has owned both keyboards side by side.
Keith, your views are always highly regarded - so thanks.

I mostly play in "Live" situations hence I would not argue or even have a qualified opinion about "add-on" software that many owners use. I am only faithful to what works for me best and having followed many of our members' various concerns particularly relating to performance I could not let them transfer to Tyros without explaining some real hard differences (not just opinions). As for sounds - well they are very much subjective, however I agree that Yamaha T4 sounds are very nice. I spent a lot of time on Yamaha PKO forums trying to get my Tyros to an acceptable "performing" stage. There are some great people on their forums like Eileen as an example, but most of my responses were OS "work-arounds" which mostly proved to be unacceptable when performing where I need good useful access to functions and musical changes.
I have owned Yamaha keyboards for many years and do not knock Yamaha in any way. The current comparisons PA2X/PA3X with Tyros 3/4 is really somewhat awkward as they are quite different keyboards. I was really hoping to be able to take advantage of having 2 arrangers for performance and recording, but my frustration with Tyros left me no alternative. I would have jumped at the T4 if Yamaha had actually expanded and improved its OS and usability. In fact I was getting excited when first hearing about the T4 - but it was a "SOUNDs update" - no 76-note option - in fact nothing new really except for the colour of the buttons. OS seems the same with a few new bits MP3 recording etc... SA2 or DNC I can take or leave - I think that if you are prepared to "learn to use it" then both are good - the downside of SA2 for me was lack of control - that was all - most of what SA2 does is very smart and authentic.
My whole point of expressing my experiences was to purely recommend that prospective Tyros buyers moving from Korg PA actually try and set up the Tyros for performance - it is of course possible that the Tyros may work fine for them and that would be the difference in my requirements to theirs - all cool.

As for "Korg listening (or not) to us" - hmmmmmmm... I guess April will tell. If Korg are really excited about removing lead singers from professionally purchased recordings then I really get your "Karaoke" comment. Audya has this feature - I wish the R&D was put into something more practical - I also wonder about the legailty of taking a real pro recording and using its "backing" for performing.... yep, here we go again.... :wink:

Cheers

Pete :D
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mrniceneasy
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Post by mrniceneasy »

Yes indeed Pete, I guess the debate will go on and on and until Korg actually produce the actual keyboard then we won't know for sure what it can do for us. Just hope it fills my expectations but based purely on what I've seen and heard been a tad disappointed so far. I take your point about the 76 keys though, that would be great if offered on a Tyros line but it has been asked for often through Forums and here we are again, Yamaha do their own thing and don't listen. They simply don't listen to the Musicians who play the things. Must be something wrong in corporate mentality with both Korg and Yamaha, that's all I can say....

regards my friend :D
Regards, Keith [pa1000]
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Post by karmathanever »

Keith (Mr N&E) wrote:Just hope it fills my expectations but based purely on what I've seen and heard been a tad disappointed so far.......They simply don't listen to the Musicians who play the things. Must be something wrong in corporate mentality with both Korg and Yamaha, that's all I can say....
Keith - I couldn't agree more. I am more than disappointed - not so much about the poor demos but the lack of details. The Demos didn't do much more than demonstrate that it is another PA - I heard some familiar styles and as you say, we will really have to hope and wait to see if the sounds have changed. They seem excited about there being 50 NEW styles - well out of those I would guess that most of us will only use a limited number - I am sure they have not produced 50 styles to just suit my requirements. To sell up for $3000 (if I am lucky) and buy for $7,000 (this is the expected cost in Aus$) I really want a lot more than 50 styles!!! And I don't want WAV voice removal editing - how many people really want this?? 10%, 50% 75% - I don't remember seeing it requested much. I also wonder if they are throwing in the same PA2XPro/PA1Xpro keybed - if so I will definitely not be buying this time around.

Wow! I'm whinging now. Anyhow, I love my PA2Xpro and am losing much sleep now with my M3 - gee that thing is amazing!!!

Back to the point - Tyros vs PA is a real nightmare to figure out. I wonder if we put the Tyros 4 sound engine in the PA3X (Kyros 5) - would we all be happy (must include a good PC editor too eh!!)

Cheers mate

Pete :D
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Lee
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Post by Lee »

Keith, Pete,
Thanks to you both for your last posts.
It really hits home. As you know I have the PA2XPRO and I think it's super and very PRO level. Korg's approach s very different than Yamaha...Korg takes a WS and add's arranger functions. Yamaha takes a Clavinova and makes a PSR/Tyros....so, that is IMHO why we have not gotten some of the PRO features we want from Yamaha. On the other hand, Korg keeps the PA as a synth first, so we don't get some of the sounds I need/like. Yamaha caters to te home player. I am one.

I did talk with a guy I know today that explained something to me as to the live performance you speak of, Pete...He said, the Korg is much better if you want to change sounds etc during yor play and you have not pre-planned it. I agree. He also said that the Yamaha is fine for live play if you use registrations or follow your plan not the audiece's.

I do not play out and I will not be. So for me the Sounds are the most important thing. The Tyros is fine for live play the way I WILL DO IT.
Here is an example......he does not need anything he does not have:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPB5VbbDkCs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-r_qu8h ... er&list=UL

This is live performance. To me.

So, the delima...Yamaha has the sounds, styles, third party support, that I like
Korg has 76 key, PRO features and better OS, in general a WS with arranger, that I like.

One more thing...I am very unhappy Korg did not listen to us.
I think they, Korg, have a certain customer base they listen to ..and it ain't me.

I think Yamaha has a certain customer set they listen to , and it ain't me either.

I'm pretty frustrated with them both.
Lee
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Post by karmathanever »

Lee wrote:He also said that the Yamaha is fine for live play if you use registrations
Thanks !!! This confirms what I have been trying to portray - "REGISTRATIONS!!!" so you need a written list of REGISTRATIONS in order to know what REG number to call up.... that is SO backward - thought I had seen the last of registrations years ago.... it is a Yamaha cop-out for a poor OS. These were the responses I received from my many questions on the Yamaha Tyros forum - like "How do you switch "Bass Inversion" on/off during a song - answer "REGISTRATION" and so on.....
Lee wrote:Yamaha has the sounds, styles, third party support
Gee it is so different between us all.

My personal opinion is that Tyros styles don't even come close to Korg's. Yams have great intros and endings full with mega-voice sounds but the actual guts of their styles to me is weak and repetitive - I spent a lot of time on Yam's styles but there seems to be almost a total absence of any "CVs" as we have on the Korgs (since the i3). I get sick of hearing "repetitive" little brass riffs every 2 or 4 measures on Yams - I know that this may happen with the odd Korg style but more often than not if you are varying chord types the accompaniment will authentically change.

Oh well - the long silence continues... we wait....we wait.... what an opportunity for Casio to hit the market :wink:

Cheers

Pete :D
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Post by Lee »

Pete,
I guess I'm used to registrations from playing Organ all those years (pistons). The way you use it is to setup the regisrations for the song, then use a foot pedal to sequentially go through them as you do the song.

Yes, Korg has a lot of great styles...but Yammi has lots of song oriented styles, so for more low/intermediate level playing it's nice.

You are right we wait, wait....
I will not get anything untill I see for myself how the PA3X stackes up.
Lee
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Sho bi Daaaa.

Post by Asena »

Hi folks.

yesterday i played on a T 4, 3 Hrs.
And belive me , its a great KB when you are in a restaurant playing oldies.
And Some latin, Cumbia. but this Sho bi do baa, Is SxxT , couse , how we hardly try to copy cat some thing is stupid, if you realy wanna sing sho bi do ba, than sing it self dam it!
Why spend so much time and energy for this Sho bi do bah thing, insteed for making a OS that is more open and comfortible for the users.

Many SA sounds are great, Why not more of that stuff?

just some great telecasters, and some new Strings and some drum kit And , THERE IT IS.
I was expecting some more. For the moment i play on a T 2, Waiting for the 3 x.
And i ,m sure there is more in that kb, i do not need vocal remover, i need better OS whit compatibilies for new generations for the music making, i dont play cha cha, i dont play wiener waltz, i dont play any balroom, i play weddings and partys for the new generation, and i need better sounds and better styles for that kind of music, In yamaha there is many great Moog , PPG, Arp, And more . there is RNB, that rocks Swings, Couse the sounds are the new generations, They always demo, the el pianos, Organs and pianos, make some sounds like for US younger people, Moog bases, Fresh Pads, moving layers, Stomping dr kits, Synth leads, arp sounds, and more.

i,m tired of buying the same styles in a new can, just listen to the demos of the brands, Always blue ballad, And always the Sickpipe, That makes me Sick :(
So if they wanna sell , they must OPEN A NEW CHAPTER as i sad many many times, just look at the kronos, New sounds, New technic, and so, The Yamaha from the T2 until now how many new styles, From scratch?
Always the same styles whit New Sa sounds SA 2 Sounds Soon Sa 3 4 5 .
come ooon.

Realy, is there nothing better than this KB, s , Couse if i,m gonna buy a KB for 4000 euros , Than i can pay some more and get the REAL PRO, Is there any?
Liontracks?
We need more guys For that money we realy need better , KORG or YAMY, We need more,
Sho bi da thing is cool when they demo, but can we use it in Stage?
I dont think there is many songs that use SHO BI DAH.

I,m depended on the USB,s from ISTANBUL/KORG Turkey, thats the only reason why i stay on KORG front!And couse the edit s on board we can do.

Shobidah my ...
Gimme some punpin Dance, some House, Some Modern Rnb Beats, Some modern Styles like Rihanna songs, like, guru Josh Project, like David guetta, pit bull!

It depends who makes the styles, Realy, i respect the old songs but, Its 2011, And the music today is not only elvis anymore, or Frankie. :!:
www.globalsound.se

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Re: Sho bi Daaaa.

Post by Sam CA »

Asena wrote:Hi folks.

yesterday i played on a T 4, 3 Hrs.
And belive me , its a great KB when you are in a restaurant playing oldies.
And Some latin, Cumbia. but this Sho bi do baa, Is SxxT , couse , how we hardly try to copy cat some thing is stupid, if you realy wanna sing sho bi do ba, than sing it self dam it!
Why spend so much time and energy for this Sho bi do bah thing, insteed for making a OS that is more open and comfortible for the users.

Many SA sounds are great, Why not more of that stuff?

just some great telecasters, and some new Strings and some drum kit And , THERE IT IS.
I was expecting some more. For the moment i play on a T 2, Waiting for the 3 x.
And i ,m sure there is more in that kb, i do not need vocal remover, i need better OS whit compatibilies for new generations for the music making, i dont play cha cha, i dont play wiener waltz, i dont play any balroom, i play weddings and partys for the new generation, and i need better sounds and better styles for that kind of music, In yamaha there is many great Moog , PPG, Arp, And more . there is RNB, that rocks Swings, Couse the sounds are the new generations, They always demo, the el pianos, Organs and pianos, make some sounds like for US younger people, Moog bases, Fresh Pads, moving layers, Stomping dr kits, Synth leads, arp sounds, and more.

i,m tired of buying the same styles in a new can, just listen to the demos of the brands, Always blue ballad, And always the Sickpipe, That makes me Sick :(
So if they wanna sell , they must OPEN A NEW CHAPTER as i sad many many times, just look at the kronos, New sounds, New technic, and so, The Yamaha from the T2 until now how many new styles, From scratch?
Always the same styles whit New Sa sounds SA 2 Sounds Soon Sa 3 4 5 .
come ooon.

Realy, is there nothing better than this KB, s , Couse if i,m gonna buy a KB for 4000 euros , Than i can pay some more and get the REAL PRO, Is there any?
Liontracks?
We need more guys For that money we realy need better , KORG or YAMY, We need more,
Sho bi da thing is cool when they demo, but can we use it in Stage?
I dont think there is many songs that use SHO BI DAH.

I,m depended on the USB,s from ISTANBUL/KORG Turkey, thats the only reason why i stay on KORG front!And couse the edit s on board we can do.

Shobidah my ...
Gimme some punpin Dance, some House, Some Modern Rnb Beats, Some modern Styles like Rihanna songs, like, guru Josh Project, like David guetta, pit bull!

It depends who makes the styles, Realy, i respect the old songs but, Its 2011, And the music today is not only elvis anymore, or Frankie. :!:
In brief, you said you liked the modern sounds/styles from T4 that seem to suit the current mainstream music better! No?
Sam

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Post by Sina172 »

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Lee
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Post by Lee »

Hey guys...I can see what you mean on the more modern stuff....
BUT, the facts are that the general age range on folks getting arrangers is 50-70. So that is the crowd they are trying to please.

I am speaking in general about the West and Europe.
Europe is who I think Yamaha listens to,,,especially England, Germany, et.
I do think Korg offers more for younger players than Yamaha.
Lee
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Post by Asena »

ok So we must wait until this people dies?And than Korg will make new stuf . comon!
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Post by mrniceneasy »

Asena wrote:ok So we must wait until this people dies?And than Korg will make new stuf . comon!
Comon Timur! by the time that happens ---- You'll be 50+ as well :lol:
Regards, Keith [pa1000]
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Post by Asena »

hahahahaha you Funny Oldie! , this is about New thinking , No one is old, if they dont be OLD!
al depends how you are in your Soul, hahaha :wink:
www.globalsound.se

KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10




MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
LOTS OF SAMPLE SOUNDS!
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