Radiation tainted Kronos?

[synthguy]

Well, to put a little perspective on this issue, I'd like to provide a little contrast.

As World War II was closing down, Japan refused to surrender. The Allies had two choices: either invade with waves of million-man strong forces, causing horrendous casualties and destruction for both sides, or use the new superweapons originally made to use against NAZI Germany. These were two atomic fission bombs, one made from deadly radioactive uranium-235 isotopes, the other from even more deadly plutonium-239. As history records, both bombs were dropped when Japan rejected overtures of surrender.

Neither bomb was very well designed, as this was uncharted territory, and there were very few test devices, since the amount of available weapons grade material was precious limited. They were perhaps 10-15% efficient, so most of the radioactive material in the bombs, as well as the huge lead casings of the bombs, became vaporized and scattered across the land near the targets, and in fact the entire globe. This was deadly stuff, highly radioactive and toxic metals. But the Japanese were determined to reclaim the land, even though the advice from numerous scientists was that these areas would be radioactive wastelands, contaminated for centuries and uninhabitable.

Well, they worked like crazy to clean away the fallout, and today both cities are safe, wonderfully rebuilt and thriving. I'm not too worried about what people write and think in fear. In time, no matter what happens, these reactors will be dealt with, Fukushima will be safe, and we'll come up with some other scare, true or false, to worry about.

[McHale]

Here's some more of that pesky hospital equipment setting off alarms all across the US:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/28/th ... on-spread/

And as a Chicago native, I'm pretty sure we were lied to in that Tribune article where they said "nothing to see here, it's all because of.... um... x-ray equipment. YAH! X-RAY EQUIPMENT!"

[peter_schwartz]

Neither bomb was very well designed

The best minds in the world conferred on the design! And as it all played out, both bombs were -- to put it in context with what you wrote above -- peculiarly effective at destroying two cities and their inhabitants.

I'd say it was very well designed, wouldn't you?

[danatkorg]

Here's some more of that pesky hospital equipment setting off alarms all across the US:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/28/th ... on-spread/

Did you read that article? Here's how it starts:

"No Threat From Japanese Radiation Spread Across U.S."

Traces of radioactive material from the endangered Japanese nuclear plant are being detected from coast to coast in the United States and in Iceland, but amounts continue to be far below levels that would cause health problems.

The development of super-sensitive equipment to detect radiation is both a blessing and a curse, allowing scientists to monitor materials released in nuclear accidents, but also causing unnecessary worry, said Kathryn Higley, director of the nuclear engineering and radiation health physics at Oregon State University.

Traces of radioactive cesium and iodine are being reported from Nevada to Vermont, South Carolina to Massachusetts, thanks to equipment that Higley says can detect material "many orders of magnitude below what would be hazardous."

The traces of radiation outside of Japan are "absolutely of no concern," added Ahmed Hassanein, head of nuclear engineering at the Purdue School of Nuclear Engineering.

[McHale]

I read it. The corn industry also says that high fructose corn syrup is safe (despite plenty of studies to prove otherwise). A lot of exposure all at once is bad, but a little exposure over long periods of time is also bad. If you ever get a chance, read up on the Radium Dial Plant in Ottawa IL. The Radium Dial company told the workers that exposure to radium paint wasn't bad for them either. Not only did it kill most of them, but the water table, the soil, and the general environment got polluted and children were born years later with horrible birth defects. There was a movie made about this called Radium City. The government as well as the mayor of Ottawa told the people that everything was fine and everything was perfectly safe. When townspeople refused to believe it, someone got their own Geiger counter and learned the horrible truth. There's a 10 minute clip on YouTube that by itself should scare the crap out of you.

Believe what you want, but coming from someone who grew up in the Ottawa area during the "everything's fine" period (the soil in the neighboring town has arsenic due to the glass factory which is also directly linked to birth defects despite people being told it was fine), I chose to avoid ANY exposure to radiation. To quickly ad, I worked in a nuclear plant for several years and am fully aware of what "no threat" translates to in real life. I still get a letter every year from the NRC with my documented exposure readings even though I was told it was perfectly safe to get a few millirem of radiation here and there.

Do you think the government is going to say, "there is nuclear contamination in the air - everybody panic"? There's nothing we can do about it and it's best to live through it because there is no alternative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa,_Illinois

Radium City Documentary

In 1986 documentary film maker Carole Langer made a film that covered the plight of the so called “Radium Girls” who worked in the watch dial industry. The women, who had been told the paint was harmless, ingested deadly amounts of radium after being instructed to lick their paintbrushes to sharpen them; some even painted their fingernails with the glowing paint. Many of the women began to suffer from anemia, bone fractures and necrosis of the jaw, a condition now known as radium jaw. Many of these women died young.

The documentary interviews survivors from the industrial tragedy who relate their experiences of the poisoning and the bureaucratic nightmare they were forced to contend with in seeking compensation and justice. Radium City outlines the aftermath of these events with a focus on the social and political consequences as well as the medical ones.
According to the film, after the Radium Dial workers began to get sick, a lawsuit was brought against Radium Dial Company. With the looming lawsuit, it closed and then re-opened under the name Luminous Processes in another part of town. The workers, though more concerned, kept on working.

The film shows the dismantling of the High School where the Radium Dial Company was housed. The building materials were eventually turned into landfill. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency began removing contaminated material in 1986[1]. The work continues.
After the plant closed and before it was dismantled many residents took items from the factory for their homes. This spread the contamination even further.

Areas still impacted by Radiation

Several areas of Ottawa are still radioactive. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released a study[2] outlining areas where contamination by radium-226 (Ra-226) as well as emissions of radon-222 (Rn-222) are at above normal levels. These areas include homes, public areas, schools, and even a car sales lot that is housed directly over the old Radium Dial Company site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa_fQgkw-vo

[jimknopf]

I am somewhat concerned that this thread will explode into sharp disputes, if we try to debate the whole principal question of nuclear risks worldwide, from Hiroshima to Harrisburg, Chernobyl, Fukushima and beyond, up to forms of radioactive environment or workplace pollution.

There are too many debatable points to get this done in a Korg forum.
Therefore I would prefer to concentrate on the main points:
a) concern for the still serious situation of the people in Japan
b) no wrong fear of contaminated synths, as long as there is no solid proof of any kind of danger of this kind. Just suspecting something like that is not helpful and not fair towards Japanese companies.

So I politely ask for calming down this debate, and say that as someone, who could easily react very sharp towards any careless talk about nuclear dangers, by naming critical facts. I just don't think this would lead us anywhere. And I don't think anyone will change his mind from a necessarily superficial discussion here in a Kronos board.

So before we get into conflict over something which has not much to do with synths and music, and not really helping anyone by doing so, let's spare our breath. Aside from a) and b): Isn't it bad/good enough, if we keep on exchanging vitriolic little remarks about mutual different sound and device priorities, and what a Kronos should or should not be able to do, or when it should be available, and how much it will cost in Europe, and how powerful or not the competition will react?

[peter_schwartz]

...

[ozy]

It's not becoming divisive because this time nobody dared to mention God

Oh oops!

... or smile when talking of dramatic issues...

Oh, oops, again

[Akos Janca]

Jim, I agree - from practical point of view it's better to stop 'cause we simply don't know enough and cannot answer the question. Debating will not help.

The question still remains I think, and people must have the right to be concerned if they want to. Musicians/artists are sensitive and intelligent, some of them may be overreacting easily. They need the definite answer.

PS1. Once I bought a nice MIDI controller, I liked it, then I read in the manual "it contains lead that may be harmful for health" - and only because of that I sold it finally. Maybe my OASYS also contains lead somewhere... I don't care, I love it! Very probably I was overreacting then, but I just recovered from illness (by grace) and I didn't want to take any risk.

PS2. Imagine (not a fact!): a plane is landing with the first wonderful Kronos instruments we are all waiting for. The radiation alarm is going off...

I hope this nightmare won't happen.

At least you'll look cool on a dark stage (and will be able to change presets without the use of a lamp)!!

[peter_schwartz]

...

(why bother)

[synthguy]

I agree... right after this.

Neither bomb was very well designed

The best minds in the world conferred on the design! And as it all played out, both bombs were -- to put it in context with what you wrote above -- peculiarly effective at destroying two cities and their inhabitants.

I'd say it was very well designed, wouldn't you?

Short answer, no. Long answer,

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Okay, I think this joke is kind of old. But no.

Compared to nuclear weapon refinements in the 50s and 60s, the WWII weapons are pretty cruddy. Modern weapons convert 95% or more of the nuclear material into the explosion, at least in the west, and reduce the uranium and plutonium into less dangerous elements. In contrast, the two dropped on Japan used as little as 10% of the material in the explosion, raining the rest of it down on the area of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In fact, they're very much like the dirty bomb concept we're afraid terrorists might use.

[peter_schwartz]

I think we can agree on "crude, but effective".

[Akos Janca]

I think we can agree on "crude, but effective".

Peter, please don't take it from me as a personal offense at all - but I think exactly THIS is what must be stopped.

[jimknopf]

Just to prevent a misunderstanding:

I don't vote for ending the thread altogether - how could I ?

I just vote for refraining from harsh principal debates about nuclear dangers and energy resources, or WWII scenarios which alone could lead to massive and higly conflicting debates. Not always easy, and some comments in here could easily provoke reactions from my side as well. I just stop myself, because I don't see what positive goal could be achieved by walking into that trap. We probably won't be able to debate essential questions here up to any consensus or conclusion, and rather would become quite sarcastic or sharp, while still debating something which right now concerns others much more than us. That just doesn't feel right for me, if any of you understands what I mean.

Concerning the original post:
The question is legitimate, but it is no self fulfilling propecy. If there will be any alarm, well so what? Then we will have to wait a little longer. But if nothing like that happens, why debate that scenario before it is even probable, not speaking of proven?

[peter_schwartz]

I think we can agree on "crude, but effective".

Peter, please don't take it from me as a personal offense at all - but I think exactly THIS is what must be stopped.

What exactly must be stopped then?

Last I checked, Akos, synthguy and I were discussing his characterization of the effectiveness of the atom bombs used in WWII. And after a little back and forth, I took synthguy's last comment at face value. He's talking about how modern nuclear weapons are more "efficient", in a manner of speaking. I'm going to take his word for it that that's a fact. So yes, those bombs were "crude". And "effective" in the sense that they did what they were intended to do, horrific -- almost unspeakable -- as it was.

OK? Or is there something more to be read into what I wrote? I'll answer that question for you... Since I'm the one writing the words you're commenting on, I think I'm in a much better position to judge what they meant than you or anyone else.