They changed the specs!

Randelph · Post by **Randelph** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:43 am

Of course, the production line is already rolling, there's no time to add that capability (I'm assuming)...

However- it would be good to know from someone that knows, like Dan, or someone who could get the info:

Is it POSSIBLE to do this RAM upgrade to 4GB?

How difficult would it be?

Of course, to me, it sounds like a slam dunk: the processor is capable of using 4 GB, so a little tweaking to the OS and its done, right?

But then there's the "little" matter of installing it- there's probably no easy access.

Then there's certifying which memory modules are 100% compatible with the Kronos (which means testing on Korgs end).

Yamaha built a little money machine into their XF by making the flash memory super pricey (actually, I don't know how pricey flash memory is compared to regular RAM).

It's obvious Korg didn't plan for that contingency, so whatever they come up with will be an upgrade path that's slightly fraught with peril for them: users opening and upgrading their Kronos, does that void the warranty? I know some such restriction applies for the M3 (this came up around replacing the internal SD card).

Whatever- hard to know all the pitfalls. It would be good though to at least know if this upgrade is possible and what how much work it would be to tweak the OS to recognize the extra memory.

Randy

JimH · Post by **JimH** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:54 am

GregC wrote:You simply cannot stop the train in its tracks and re-wire the OS and pop in 4 GB.

Right, I don't see how that could possibly happen. If there aren't already DRAM sockets in there and a way for a user to access them, there's no way to just add RAM. To add extra RAM requires you to re-layout the circuit board, account for extra power requirement and maybe heat (although not much of either for RAM), not to mention EMI re-certification, etc.
If demand is high enough, maybe easiest way for them would just be to make a Kronos Mk II in a year or two that would have 4GB of RAM standard.

T7 · Post by T7 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:04 am

JimH wrote:
GregC wrote:You simply cannot stop the train in its tracks and re-wire the OS and pop in 4 GB.
Right, I don't see how that could possibly happen. If there aren't already DRAM sockets in there and a way for a user to access them, there's no way to just add RAM. To add extra RAM requires you to re-layout the circuit board, account for extra power requirement and maybe heat (although not much of either for RAM), not to mention EMI re-certification, etc.
If demand is high enough, maybe easiest way for them would just be to make a Kronos Mk II in a year or two that would have 4GB of RAM standard.

The Kronos is a Linux box with an embedded Atom mobo in it. If 4GB isn't already installed, I have no doubt it is as easy as an OS tweak and replacing the existing RAM with higher capacity modules, in the existing slots. Off the shelf PC parts have been used in synth gear forever. Haven't you guys owned a hardware sampler?

And EMI resertification for upgrading RAM? Poppycock.

JimH · Post by **JimH** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:15 am

OS change is not a problem. I was talking about if additional chips are added.

Are there higher capacity chips with the same pinout, given the chips they use? Have they run all the necessary address lines on the board? I'm not a hardware engineer so I could be wrong.

T7 · Post by T7 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:39 am

JimH wrote:OS change is not a problem. I was talking about if additional chips are added.

Are there higher capacity chips with the same pinout, given the chips they use? Have they run all the necessary address lines on the board? I'm not a hardware engineer so I could be wrong.

Address lines, pinouts? We're talking about off the shelf removeable PC RAM. If the mobo in the Kronos doesn't have additional empty slots, then it's a matter of pulling the current RAM out and replacing it with higher capacity modules. Either way, once the Kronos is opened, it's a two minute upgrade. Haven't you upgraded RAM in a PC? It's the same thing.

Citizen Klaus · Post by **Citizen Klaus** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:39 am

JimH wrote:Are there higher capacity chips with the same pinout, given the chips they use? Have they run all the necessary address lines on the board? I'm not a hardware engineer so I could be wrong.

The OASYS used 184-pin DDR SDRAM, for which Newegg currently shows modules available in capacities up to 1GB per stick.

Of course, that's a rather antediluvian form factor, by this point, and one not found on most modern motherboards. Modules are currently available for DDR2 and DDR3 (both 240-pin) in capacities up to 4GB per stick -- and for pretty cheap, at least in the case of DDR3. (Currently averaging ~$40/stick for 4GB.)

The real questions are:

How many RAM sockets did Korg build into the motherboard?
What standard (DDR2 or DDR3) and speed ratings are supported by the Kronos?
What capacity modules are supported by the Kronos OS?

and, perhaps most importantly,

Is there a memory upgrade access hatch somewhere on the Kronos chassis? (We haven't really heard yet one way or the other.)

synthguy · Post by **synthguy** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:32 am

Even if KORG had a custom Atom motherboard made for the Kronos, rather than a basic, standard off the shelf, stable and fast mobo, I'd think only mind controlled zombie engineers wouldn't be thinking, "User ram is dwindling... maybe we should address that."

We all know that computer memory fluctuates a bit in price over time, but the capacity grows exponentially while the price remains about the same. So it's not a matter of being able to afford ram for Kronos. Designing a motherboard with sufficient memory slots isn't hard. More slots don't increase the cost of the board much at all. It just depends on whether the engineers spend half a minute to think of all the ways The K are going to be used.

For those DAW users, and us soon to be DAW users, the matter isn't a huge deal, assuming we're going to be using our Kronoses in the studio exclusively. When the time comes to record stuff we want done with additional user loaded samples, assuming there will never be a memory upgrade (very strange), we can dump everything from ram and load stuff in up to a gig or so I believe. But... I just have to think that a performance oriented synth like the Kronos just can't be designed by people so blind to such a significant factor as user sample ram capacity, and something so simple to upgrade. And anyone that doesn't think they can, any nephew should be able to, or a happy tech at our local music store. Or the shop we buy ours from. I just can't believe something as grandiose as the Kronos would be stuck with such stingy ram these days, especially after the tamtrums so many musicians threw over the measley 300 some-odd megabytes on the M3. And how well the Karo guys have been supporting KORG.

I guess I'll just keep faith alive, and if I'm proven wrong... oh well, there's always other synthmakers for sampling.

JimH · Post by **JimH** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:11 am

T7 wrote:Address lines, pinouts? We're talking about off the shelf removeable PC RAM. If the mobo in the Kronos doesn't have additional empty slots, then it's a matter of pulling the current RAM out and replacing it with higher capacity modules. Either way, once the Kronos is opened, it's a two minute upgrade. Haven't you upgraded RAM in a PC? It's the same thing.

I wasn't talking about off-the-shelf RAM but rather assuming it would be soldered onto the board to save the cost of sockets. But if the OASYS has sockets, then I guess that's a good reason to think the Kronos will as well. So I hope you're right and it's just a matter of replacing DIMMs. (Why doesn't Korg just say so then?)

Randelph · Post by **Randelph** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:34 am

Synthguy wrote:

Even if KORG had a custom Atom motherboard made for the Kronos, rather than a basic, standard off the shelf, stable and fast mobo, I'd think only mind controlled zombie engineers wouldn't be thinking, "User ram is dwindling... maybe we should address that."

We all know that computer memory fluctuates a bit in price over time, but the capacity grows exponentially while the price remains about the same. So it's not a matter of being able to afford ram for Kronos.

Designing a motherboard with sufficient memory slots isn't hard. More slots don't increase the cost of the board much at all. It just depends on whether the engineers spend half a minute to think of all the ways The K are going to be used.

For those DAW users, and us soon to be DAW users, the matter isn't a huge deal, assuming we're going to be using our Kronoses in the studio exclusively. When the time comes to record stuff we want done with additional user loaded samples, assuming there will never be a memory upgrade (very strange), we can dump everything from ram and load stuff in up to a gig or so I believe.

But... I just have to think that a performance oriented synth like the Kronos just can't be designed by people so blind to such a significant factor as user sample ram capacity, and something so simple to upgrade.

And anyone that doesn't think they can, any nephew should be able to, or a happy tech at our local music store. Or the shop we buy ours from.

I just can't believe something as grandiose as the Kronos would be stuck with such stingy ram these days, especially after the tamtrums so many musicians threw over the measley 300 some-odd megabytes on the M3. And how well the Karo guys have been supporting KORG.

I guess I'll just keep faith alive, and if I'm proven wrong... oh well, there's always other synthmakers for sampling.

Very nicely spoken!

Are there any considerations of heat, and what is the approx cost of socketing vs. soldering memory in place?

How much more engineering to provide access to the mother board for an easy upgrade?

What's involved in certifying specific brands of memory that would work 100% of the time?

What rush-to-market behind-the-scenes factors were at work, making this a workstation for NAMM 2011 and not NAMM 2012? Esp. to hit this price point?

Randy

EXer · Post by **EXer** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:29 am

Randelph wrote:What rush-to-market behind-the-scenes factors were at work, making this a workstation for NAMM 2011 and not NAMM 2012? Esp. to hit this price point?

I guess the M3 didn't sell as well as expected. Of course I might be wrong.

Anyway, I believe that Korg are on the right way with their Kronos and I hope they will be able to address that RAM issue...

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:09 am

GregC wrote:You simply cannot stop the train in its tracks
and re-wire the OS and pop in 4 GB.

Nobody talks about stopping the train. I'm just talking about an OS update which should pose no difficulty to great software engineers at Korg. There's no need to deliver new Kronos workstations enabled with 4 GB, it would be user-installable procedure (or at least service "repair").

And memory used is off-the-shelf DDR2, presumably 800 MHz.

Melodialworks Music · Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:01 pm

Citizen Klaus wrote:Is there a memory upgrade access hatch somewhere on the Kronos chassis? (We haven't really heard yet one way or the other.)[/list]

I think we have heard that there is no access hatch, since Korg have stated that there will be no user upgradeable options for the Kronos.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:22 pm

JimH wrote:
T7 wrote:Address lines, pinouts? We're talking about off the shelf removeable PC RAM. If the mobo in the Kronos doesn't have additional empty slots, then it's a matter of pulling the current RAM out and replacing it with higher capacity modules. Either way, once the Kronos is opened, it's a two minute upgrade. Haven't you upgraded RAM in a PC? It's the same thing.
I wasn't talking about off-the-shelf RAM but rather assuming it would be soldered onto the board to save the cost of sockets. But if the OASYS has sockets, then I guess that's a good reason to think the Kronos will as well. So I hope you're right and it's just a matter of replacing DIMMs. (Why doesn't Korg just say so then?)

that potential borders on ' future capability'. And Korg employees will simply not go there.

Even though Evil Dragoon insists this update/upgrade is all simple, the Kronos hardware could be closed to all customers. Its possible that Korg
takes the cautious route to not allow a customer to muck around the circuit
board.

And frankly, it won't stop there. What about 8 GB ? What about a bigger/faster SSD, etc, etc, etc.

Post by **Sharp** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:23 pm

I think we have heard that there is no access hatch, since Korg have stated that there will be no user upgradeable options for the Kronos

Where did they say that ? Just curious as it goes against KORG's normal procedure to say something like that.

Regards
Sharp.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:34 pm

GregC wrote:And frankly, it won't stop there. What about 8 GB ?

Not possible, Atom used in Kronos supports up to 4 GB, but not more.

GregC wrote:What about a bigger/faster SSD, etc, etc, etc.

That's probably gonna be possible. Ask McHale when he gets his Kronos.