Kronos report for those planning to purchase

[MarPabl]

Krog will eventually take care of everyone that has problems with their unit down the road.

That being said, I dont' see why anyone should refrain purchasing this great synth on the basis that they "may" run into problems, because it can be fixed.

For me it's like saying: I don't want this great Ferrari because the stock tires have problems..

For me, I prefer waiting to buy a batch with the fix applied and making sure it will work without any minor possibility of failure... Because, it's not a good idea buy the great Ferrari just to send it to the repair center

[jimknopf]

If I knew I had something like a 95% chance or more, I would certainly not sit in a corner and sing a blues instead of checking that car. If I had any chance to do so, I would make a date for a test drive and check the tires.

And decide then according to my own rules. And be sure, nobody, neither the lighthearted nor the anxious ones, would have anything to tell me when I make up my mind and decide.

[MarPabl]

If I knew I had something like a 95% chance or more, I would certainly not sit in a corner and sing a blues instead of checking that car. If I had any chance to do so, I would make a date for a test drive and check the tires.

And decide then according to my own rules. And be sure, nobody, neither the lighthearted nor the anxious ones, would have anything to tell me when I make up my mind and decide.

That's the better approach where available I usually get my gear on eBay but now I can't take chances... and this is a shame because you have to let go really cool deals... And also, I've seen some Kronos 88 up to sell (few use) and with a great price.... However, I can't also take those deals, so in certain way, those (ours) Kronos are losing resell value

[kingtj]

I bought a new 76 key Kronos recently, and all I can say is: I'm having absolutely none of the issues people have been citing here repeatedly with double-struck notes, a noisy cooling fan, sticking or noisy keys, or knobs only held on with sticky tape.

I'm not trying to minimize the frustration of people who DID/DO have problems -- but at least I can clearly see Korg is capable of putting out a Kronos that works just fine and has the build quality I expected from them.

The thing I'm wondering is ... how many of the people with these issues actually contacted Korg and made use of the factory warranty? It seems like time and time again when I read of a specific problem, the owner comments that he "hasn't yet been troubled to do an exchange", and in at least 1 or 2 cases, they simply got mad, demanded a full refund from the dealer, and didn't give the Kronos a second try.

I work in I.T. for a living myself, and I know with ANY complex computer system (which a Kronos essentially is!), you're simply going to have some defective units right out of the box. The industry standard for ANY electronics product sold today is between 1-2%. If Korg is in line with those numbers, that probably means we should expect to see at LEAST 15 to 30 people with issues, based on the number manufactured so far.

If they had an actual manufacturing PROBLEM that was addressed as production went on, that number could be a lot higher and yet STILL mean it's not really anything to worry about if you're buying a new one today.

I'm pretty sure the issues like the "taped down knobs" were already investigated and determined to only be the case on very early production units. The knobs and controllers on my Kronos feel as solid as one would expect. I'm not saying they feel like they're "built like a tank" or anything, but nothing I'd manipulate a few times and feel alarmed about.

I guess what I haven't been seeing are reports of people contacting Krog for resolutions to any of these problems and getting back a response that they're not willing to help? THAT would concern me. The rest of this stuff? Not really so much ....

Sorry to fuel the debate once again - I generally don't like doing so - but I was about to offer support to the poster on this issue who returned his Kronos on the other thread but it's locked down.

I'm a long standing OASYS user (use two of them), a beta tester for OASYS synths and a huge Korg fan - and a long standing member of the OASYS forum so there's no trolling here - but -

While your Kronos is working fine; I think there are enough genuine negative reports to indicate a real issue with build quality of the Kronos. Few argue about the Kronos 'engine' - it is 2nd to none - but the physical chassis seems to have suffered badly in streamlining it to lower the cost. Despite the endless gripes of those struggling - they have suffered genuinely - and even if only a few percent of users - the number is too high and there can be no doubt that there are real issues.

So my intent to purchase a Kronos has been put firmly on hold - and I do not say that likely or advertise it here to look for a reaction - I'm a synth fanatic and hugely applauded the release of Kronos - but the sheer number of bad stories and even photographs of unlevel keybeds, dials held on with sticky-tape and the like have made be back right off.

I hope to buy one eventually - but at a minimum will wait at least one more year until Korg are onto their 2nd or 3rd manufacture batch where hopefully some of the real and current concerns are addressed.

In my view, the hardware design team of Korg have let Korg R&D and the legacy of Korg down badly. There is no doubt that this is the worst physical instrument they have ever produced - and that needs to be said because its the actual case and Korg need to learn from it.


I understand all to the pressures they are under and I want them to survive and proper - and I want to buy their products - but I'm extremely sceptical about the physical quality and longevity of Kronos as it currently exists.

So while I accept the Kronos engine is unique and unrivalled; there is no doubt from the unequivocal evidence presented here that there are real issues. As said, even a few percent of Kronos being flawed translates to a real and serious manufacturing quality issue; and IMO that will appear in all Kronos eventually (within perhaps 3 - 5 years). The situation is not good.


I'm personally hoping for the release of a Kronos module to mitigate all of the risks seeming apparent with the current 73 and 88 note models.

Your flawless keyboard does not negate the horror stories otherwise being reported in good faith by others.

Kevin.

[Ojustaboo]

The thing I'm wondering is ... how many of the people with these issues actually contacted Korg and made use of the factory warranty? It seems like time and time again when I read of a specific problem, the owner comments that he "hasn't yet been troubled to do an exchange", and in at least 1 or 2 cases, they simply got mad, demanded a full refund from the dealer, and didn't give the Kronos a second try.

There's people in the keybed thread that have returned them for replacements and had the problem on their second and in some cases third keybed

With regards to going directly to the Korg, in England, the way consumer law works is that the contract is between you and the retailer that sold it to you, not the manufacture. While I agree its often easier to go straight to the manufacture, if you do that, your consumer rights are limited compared to if you go the proper route of going back to the retailer.

I work in I.T. for a living myself, and I know with ANY complex computer system (which a Kronos essentially is!), you're simply going to have some defective units right out of the box.

Yep, totally agree, but the data knob, the required packing, the keybed are nothing at all to do with the computer side of things.

The industry standard for ANY electronics product sold today is between 1-2%.

Again, the problems I stated are not electronic failures (keybed may have something to do with electronics, but it's not the same as doa on arrival electronic components)

I also have worked in IT all my life until health problems forced me to retire, in a multimillion pound computer installation. We would NEVER have put up with waiting weeks for problems to be fixed (what's more none of our suppliers would have expected us to either), the only time we would is when we were running experimental super computers where we knew in advance such problems were likely.

If Korg is in line with those numbers, that probably means we should expect to see at LEAST 15 to 30 people with issues, based on the number manufactured so far.

In this forum alone there's about double that 15 - 30 figure, I quickly counted 45 (and missed out a few that were dubious or unclear) a week ago and there have been a few more since then. Plus some people know of others not in this forum who also have the problem.

If they had an actual manufacturing PROBLEM that was addressed as production went on, that number could be a lot higher and yet STILL mean it's not really anything to worry about if you're buying a new one today.

That depends on what country you live in and what the various consumer rights are in that country, how long you have to return it (some have said they only have a month to return the unit), and/or you need it to play live, and/or whether there's replacement kronos availabe, while I don't doubt for a minute that they will eventually sort the problem, in those sorts of situations, when no time frame for a fix is available, what would you expect someone to do?

And again when people read of others who have returned their kronos, sometimes more than once, and still have a board that cuts off notes, is it any real surprise that when others suffer this problem, they simply decide to go down a different route and ask for a refund.

If I brought a high end car and it had problems stopping me being able to drive it safely, if I was a car collector and it was in addition to my usual vehicle, then I may well be very happy to go the route of waiting. But if I need that car to earn my living, then I need it working now.

Which is why I said that if you needed it as your main keyboard or for live work, I wouldn't recommend the gamble at present. If you have 4 other keyboards, then fine go for it.

I guess what I haven't been seeing are reports of people contacting Krog for resolutions to any of these problems and getting back a response that they're not willing to help? THAT would concern me. The rest of this stuff? Not really so much ....

From what I've read on here, its worse than that, no response at all (being told by the official repair centres or the retailer that they are still waiting to hear from Korg themselves)

The ONLY response I've heard of anywhere is the one in this unofficial forum, and that was after pages of complaints and dissatisfied customers.

It's no good spending £3000 on a product and be told not to worry, it will be fixed at some point, but we have no answers now and cant tell you when.

People want a time frame, people want an answer as to when, or assurances that the warranty will start again from scratch when this problem is finally fixed. Else they could have a 12 month warranty and have the keyboard unusable for 6 months + of that. Again not the situation I would want to be in if I'd spent £300 on a board let alone £3000.

When numerous customers have contacted Korg either via their countries authorised dealer/service centre or the retailer they brought it off and each time the customer follows up a week or so later they get told the the repair centre/retailer etc is still waiting to hear back from the main Korg place, is it any wonder that when others take the gamble, and find they too have a defective board, they read on a forum such as this what's happened to those that have tried getting answers, and simply decide that after spending that much money, they don't expect to have to go through all of that, hence give up and go a different route?

Then of course there's the numerous people who buy online and have to go through the expense (ok they probably will get it refunded, but its still a lot of hassle) of packing it up, sending it back and waiting for another one to come, knowing that as they aren't near a shop, they cant try it out for themselves before they bring it home etc etc etc.

Again I don't doubt for 1 second that Korg will sort out peoples problems, all I'm saying is that until they can give us a more definite "we've discovered a small manufacturing defect on a small number of keyboards, we have a fix that will be available at repair centres on xyz", then if someone asks me for MY opinion as to whether or not they should buy one, I would have to say that unless it's in addition to a load of other keyboards, I would say wait a while.

[rrricky rrrecordo]

Those of us who love it and appreciate its awesomeness are going to champion it's virtues loudly; being the King of the pile, it's detractors will fiercely throw their stones at the one thing that looms the largest on the horizon and casts a long shadow over all that they hold dear.

"King of the pile" is a noble position indeed - however this position is always ephemeral and transitory.

What "looms the largest on the horizon" may well turn out to be the next King. Gather thy stones...

[kingtj]

Well, that's certainly not good.... and it does make you suspect there's some kind of manufacturing issue going on with the RH3 keybeds. (The fact that Korg already changed them around slightly, with earlier ones not displaying the same RH3 sticker on them as later ones have, etc. is definitely a sign that something's going on.)

I'm in the USA, so not as aware of the legal ramifications in England of handling a return different ways. Here, I know the typical situation tends to be a 30 day window where you can exchange or return your product to the vendor you purchased it from, for basically any reason (assuming you return it in the same overall condition you bought it in). After that's passed though, you pretty much have to go direct to the manufacturer for a warranty claim, for the remaining duration of the factory warranty. (Obviously, there are exceptions, but most tend to involve a dealer simply trying to go "above and beyond", even putting him/herself out of pocket for the cost of the replacement unit temporarily, just to please a customer. Eventually, the dealer is still going to have to do the return paperwork with Korg to get a defective one back to them for a credit.)

Still, all of this reminds me a LOT of my dealings with Apple computer and their products. Sometimes you *do* have to wait weeks for a replacement if you have the bad luck of buying a D.O.A. product from them (as I did with a Macbook Pro 15" one time). You also have to deal with them keeping silent about any potential defects in their products until they know 100% what's going on and have a fix prepared that they're confident in. It constantly annoys their customers too, yet it's probably the smartest way to go about things for Apple. Long time Apple owners figure out that they do ultimately stand behind what they sell, often in a way superior to the competition. But they demand a bit of "faith" when you're caught in the middle of an issue.

(I remember, for example, when LCD displays were still a new thing -- everyone was demanding to know how many bad pixels a given company would consider an "unacceptable" number, leading to a warranty exchange. Most companies published a number, eventually, such as 5 or 7. Apple, unlike the others, would never say. Their official response was simply that "We consider it on a case by case basis." In reality, this was better for customers because an artist or pro photographer who had real problems with even 1 bad pixel could argue their case to Apple and often get a replacement. There was no written policy stating otherwise. But so many people got upset about having to trust Apple to "do the right thing", they didn't understand they already had a better deal than they'd get elsewhere!)

If you really only own one keyboard and you rely on it to make money? Then yeah, hold off on buying a Kronos -- or maybe only buy a used one that's been thoroughly tested and proven to work properly? I can't imagine too many people are REALLY in that situation though? If you can afford a Kronos in the first place, you can probably manage to buy some sort of suitable "backup/spare" synth, or use a MIDI controller keyboard with some computer software maybe?

There's people in the keybed thread that have returned them for replacements and had the problem on their second and in some cases third keybed

With regards to going directly to the Korg, in England, the way consumer law works is that the contract is between you and the retailer that sold it to you, not the manufacture. While I agree its often easier to go straight to the manufacture, if you do that, your consumer rights are limited compared to if you go the proper route of going back to the retailer.

[shap]

Still, all of this reminds me a LOT of my dealings with Apple computer and their products. Sometimes you *do* have to wait weeks for a replacement if you have the bad luck of buying a D.O.A. product from them...

A number of people here have posted opinions of the form "if you don't hang in and wait for a fix, you're being silly/stupid." That's a decision that each buyer has to make based on how much the problem impacts them personally. When a complex product is faulty, it's not unreasonable to be concerned about how long a fix will take. Korg (as we have seen) is no better at predicting software schedules than anybody else. That's merely the nature of software, but it does add to the customer uncertainty. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be negative toward people who feel that uncertainty is more than they want to tolerate in their situation.

It seems to me that the real questions here are as follows:

1. If my warranty runs out before Korg determines a fix, will I still get a fix? (I think this one has actually been answered).
2. For those impacted, will the warranty period be extended? If not, some people may feel that this alone is a sufficient reason to return the device. Given the demographics of failure in electronic systems, extending the warranty would not be economically prohibitive if Korg chooses to do so. Alternatively, toss those people a free sound set to reward their patience.
3. For those who are past their return date limits, will Korg make arrangements to accept returns? Given that neither the date nor the form of the fix is known, this is an issue that cannot be resolved through the normal mechanisms of a warranty (that is: by replacing the unit). What recourse does the owner have at that point if they are past their return period with their dealer?

As I've said before, I'm not one of the people who wants to return their unit, even though my use is being curtailed by the problem. I think what I'm really trying to suggest is that Korg has an opportunity here to turn a problem into good-will by taking a clear stance on these questions. I frankly doubt that many units would be returned even if Korg says that people can do so; it's merely an opportunity for aiki.