Korg Forums

I'm sorry for what ended up as being "hijacking" of that thread , but it wasn't with any bad intentions. I just get really pissed off when things seem unfair, or dishonest. I'm still nodding in disbelief thinking that there is a living soul thinking that everything with that fix - from day one 'til today - is fine and cool. But I'll refrain from commenting for awhile. That's all I needed to say.

GregC wrote:
It appears that some do not understand that korg is essentially a small co.

As such, they have limited resources, and are constrained on how to apply there limited resources . Based on my experience in the electronics industry, the service side is low on the food chain for resources and operational tools .

As musicians, you are not interested in this. You expect everything to be in place, no matter if the co is small, there was a tsunami, there was radioactive leakage , there was significant interruption in the supply chain, there was bad luck on parts on the rh3.

And it is really cool, to slag a company for several months, to expect your questions to be personally addressed, and anybody who does not do the same is a fan boy. After all, a slagger is not responsible for negative remarks, they can go on for some time, and find others who agree with them , in the heat of the moment. I suppose some may think that is cool.

However, some may have noticed that the rh3 fix is in place, there is no conspiracy theory, there is a major os upgrade and new expansions are a reality. That has always been the plan and it did not magically happen based on a bunch of Internet posts. The plan happened because there was an organized approach and a lot of hard work by a dedicated bunch of folk.

I have more regard for tangible results vs a lot of weekly communication from a company. Such companies know that the results speaks volumes vs a touchy feely announcement that essentially says, ' we understand the issue, we are sorry about the inconvenience, we are working on a solution, please work us and be patient , etc, etc. "

You may have also noticed that it is easy to tear something down and that it is more difficult to build something . I have high regard for a group of folks, who are determined to build something , even while there are significant and unexpected obstacles.

I'm perfectly well aware of both Korg's size and company history. I've used their products for almost 30 years, much of the time to the exclusion of anything else.
You mention the tsunami and ensuing problems as though it's something which no one has considered, even though you're perfectly well aware that I've referred to it in the post you quoted above. And you're perfectly well aware that, terrible though those events were, that they don't release Korg from the obligations it holds to it's customers. The Kronos is a serious piece of professional kit representing a significant investment, not a throwaway toaster. ( And, btw, £3100, the price I paid, is a considerably higher investment than the US price ).
If you're seriously trying to sell the line that Korg's response to the keybed issue has not been shaped by consumer pressure here, on Youtube and various other places, then you are beyond naive.

I have no doubt I'll get the fix and be very happy -I think the Kronos is fantastic, as I've said repeatedly. I'd be less than happy at this point if I owned a board that didn't have the problem, for reasons that Bruce has pointed out very well, so I won't repeat them here. If you're not worried about potential future problems, that's fine - but it doesn't make the concerns of others any less legitimate. And if those concerns can't be expressed here, I think that's unfortunate - but they'll be expressed somewhere. Your assertion that these issues are not discussed outside of this forum is just plain wrong. But of course you know that....

Losing the ability to be objective over something you're passionate about is not only detrimental to this forum, but ultimately to the product you're defending - and Korg themselves.

Anyway I'm done on this. Feel free to troll back. I won't be responding, but it's comforting to know that your posts make my point better than I could.

Pepperpotty wrote:We let the thread go on for 110 pages. I'd hardly call that censorship!

I would especially if your closing it now when its getting interesting.
As it says ...

"Moderated Independently" ...makes me wonder really.

If you think the issues finished because a few US users have had fixed keybeds your wrong ...plenty of other users all over the world are struggling getting Korg distributors to even acknowledge the issue exists.

DrPopper wrote:

Pepperpotty wrote:We let the thread go on for 110 pages. I'd hardly call that censorship!

I would especially if your closing it now when its getting interesting.
As it says ...

"Moderated Independently" ...makes me wonder really.

If you think the issues finished because a few US users have had fixed keybeds your wrong ...plenty of other users all over the world are struggling getting Korg distributors to even acknowledge the issue exists.

My Shop in the UK knows about it, has registered my problem, no argument. No fuss. Can't be that difficult surely.

DrPopper wrote: .plenty of other users all over the world are struggling getting Korg distributors to even acknowledge the issue exists.

Korg Country Distributors just need to look for the most recent Korg Service Bulletins. I am positive Korg has created one for the Kronos RH3 fix.

There may be some confusion at Korg dealers, but the Korg Country Distributor (the company that has a legal agreement with Korg Japan to sell and service Korg products in that country) should be able to find out information regarding the Kronos RH3 fix.

MartinHines wrote: There may be some confusion at Korg dealers, but the Korg Country Distributor (the company that has a legal agreement with Korg Japan to sell and service Korg products in that country) should be able to find out information regarding the Kronos RH3 fix.

It isn't that they can't find out about it, it's more they don't want to know about it because they don't want to allocate resources to deal with it. The pressure needs to be kept on Korg until everybody who wants it has a new keybed.

DrPopper wrote:The pressure needs to be kept on Korg until everybody who wants it has a new keybed.

Even if their keyboard isn't having any issues? And if it's not having issues, how do they know it ISN'T the new keybed already? Again, if the user's keybed is having an issue, it will be fixed properly under warranty. If someone wants a new one because someone else got a new one, they are abusing the system. Korg never promised that new advancements or improvements of future Kronos' will trickle down to the early adopters. That NEVER happens so why people feel it needs to happen here just baffles me.

McHale wrote:

DrPopper wrote:The pressure needs to be kept on Korg until everybody who wants it has a new keybed.

Even if their keyboard isn't having any issues? And if it's not having issues, how do they know it ISN'T the new keybed already? Again, if the user's keybed is having an issue, it will be fixed properly under warranty. If someone wants a new one because someone else got a new one, they are abusing the system. Korg never promised that new advancements or improvements of future Kronos' will trickle down to the early adopters. That NEVER happens so why people feel it needs to happen here just baffles me.

I fully agree with this. Korg is fixing all AFFECTED keybeds, those which are not affected, don't need to be fixed (because they are already good).

DrPopper wrote:

MartinHines wrote: There may be some confusion at Korg dealers, but the Korg Country Distributor (the company that has a legal agreement with Korg Japan to sell and service Korg products in that country) should be able to find out information regarding the Kronos RH3 fix.

It isn't that they can't find out about it, it's more they don't want to know about it because they don't want to allocate resources to deal with it. The pressure needs to be kept on Korg until everybody who wants it has a new keybed.

As someone who, in my former life, used to work on a tech bench doing warranty repair work, that doesn't make any sense. Whenever you do a warranty repair, whether it be an LCD screen dying because of a loose wire or an operation to upgrade a defective by design component (which is how I see this RH3 issue as), it's the manufacturer that eats the labor cost, not the repair facility. Korg reimburses them for the labor hours to make this fix. In other words, they make money - whether that money is coming from you the consumer, or Korg the manufacturer. Otherwise, how would these repair facilities even stay in business?

Well it's closed now, and it appears it will remain that way.

So lets close this one and move to other things.

McHale wrote:

DrPopper wrote:The pressure needs to be kept on Korg until everybody who wants it has a new keybed.

Even if their keyboard isn't having any issues? And if it's not having issues, how do they know it ISN'T the new keybed already? Again, if the user's keybed is having an issue, it will be fixed properly under warranty. If someone wants a new one because someone else got a new one, they are abusing the system. Korg never promised that new advancements or improvements of future Kronos' will trickle down to the early adopters. That NEVER happens so why people feel it needs to happen here just baffles me.

Baffles you? Never happens? Perhaps you don't understand the underlying legal and practical implications and aren't aware of the countless examples that contradict your statement. Do you think Korg is denying any early adopter a new data wheel? They recognized that crap is crap and there was a serious design flaw in the design of the original data wheel. The only difference with the RH3 is cost, which doesn't necessarily change their obligations. As a long time corporate attorney, I can assure you that without several relevant facts, there are many issues open to debate.

Why is there a new RH3 half a year after release of the Kronos? Rich F came on the board, acknowledged that Korg was aware of the note cutoff issue and would formulate a fix. What was their fix? A new RH3 that they found necessary to implement in all RH3s going forward. You might think it is just a no cost alternative they decided to implement, but Korg's behavior tells me otherwise.

IMO, it looks like a company investigating an issue and realizing there was a material design flaw that needed to be addressed. The consequences of design flaws don't always manifest for every user so the fact that you or any other user might not experience the issue is irrelevant. Do you really think Rich failed to give an updated failure because Korg thought it wasn't important? I think it is much more likely that they discovered an unacceptable failure rate rooted in a design flaw that needed to be addressed. If I'm not mistaken, they held up production of all the weighted Kronos for the new RH3. You don't think there is any cost associated with that?

Korg may not have the resources to replace all the outstanding RH3s, but that doesn't necessarily change their obligations. Without all the relevant facts I can't say exactly what their obligations are, but I certainly know that if the new RH3 addresses a flaw in design, owners of the original RH3 could very well have an argument for some kind of compensation, whether it ends up being in the form of extended warranty or replacement.

Bruce Lychee wrote:Without all the relevant facts I can't say exactly what their obligations are, but I certainly know that if the new RH3 addresses a flaw in design....

That's the critical point. What are the relevant facts? If someone has a keybed that does not exhibit the problem, is it a true statement to say that it will not exhibit the problem - at least as a result of whatever the original underlying cause of the problem was?

I'd be interested to know how many people out there have the RH3 keybed, and DON'T have the keybed problem.

rob314159 wrote:

Bruce Lychee wrote:Without all the relevant facts I can't say exactly what their obligations are, but I certainly know that if the new RH3 addresses a flaw in design....

That's the critical point. What are the relevant facts? If someone has a keybed that does not exhibit the problem, is it a true statement to say that it will not exhibit the problem - at least as a result of whatever the original underlying cause of the problem was?

I'd be interested to know how many people out there have the RH3 keybed, and DON'T have the keybed problem.

The only one who can provide the facts is Korg. They have chosen not to do so, which is within their rights. Nevertheless, if they make that choice, we can only rely on their behavior and their behavior tells me they found the problem occurring at an unacceptable rate and felt the need to change the RH3 going forward because of a design flaw in the original RH3.

Bruce Lychee wrote:Baffles you? Never happens? Perhaps you don't understand the underlying legal and practical implications...

YOU do not get it.

If your Kronos has a problem, it will be fixed under warranty. There is NO, zero, nada LEGAL obligation to IMPROVE what you purchased. If they released a new Kronos with the greatest keybed in the world, it would not change the fact that yours performs exactly as intended, exactly as it was purchased.

If your keybed develops a problem, it will be fixed under warranty. I do not see why people feel this isn't acceptable.

NOT ALL KEYBEDS ARE AFFECTED WITH THIS ISSUE.

The issue could simply be a matter of a number of keybeds having the "shoes" being outside of their specifications. The ones that are not having a problem had the exact same pieces that the new keybeds have. So what would you accomplish by DEMANDING a new keybed? Costing Korg a lot of money for no reason but to make you feel better than you think you got something better. Since I've actually meticulously compared for hours the old keybed to the new keybed, how much do you want to bet I have a good idea on this one?

-Mc

McHale wrote:

Bruce Lychee wrote:Baffles you? Never happens? Perhaps you don't understand the underlying legal and practical implications...

YOU do not get it.

If your Kronos has a problem, it will be fixed under warranty. There is NO, zero, nada LEGAL obligation to IMPROVE what you purchased. If they released a new Kronos with the greatest keybed in the world, it would not change the fact that yours performs exactly as intended, exactly as it was purchased.

If your keybed develops a problem, it will be fixed under warranty. I do not see why people feel this isn't acceptable.

NOT ALL KEYBEDS ARE AFFECTED WITH THIS ISSUE.

The issue could simply be a matter of a number of keybeds having the "shoes" being outside of their specifications. The ones that are not having a problem had the exact same pieces that the new keybeds have. So what would you accomplish by DEMANDING a new keybed? Costing Korg a lot of money for no reason but to make you feel better than you think you got something better. Since I've actually meticulously compared for hours the old keybed to the new keybed, how much do you want to bet I have a good idea on this one?

-Mc

Everyone knows that units exhibiting the issue are covered under warranty. The warranty is limited which has a number of obvious implications.

Despite your protestations and refusal to discuss the legal issues involved, I will try to make it clear again. If we are dealing with a design flaw in the orignal design, it is not entirely clear that Korg has no obligation to address this issue for all users. If you want to debate the legal history and cases regarding the issue, I will be happy to do it in pm.

Putting things in caps doesn't make them any more convincing. The fact that not all units are exhibiting the issue is irrelevant. Ever hear of the Ring of Death? Do you think all Toyota drivers were in having issues with their pedals?

You say that older RH3s not exhibiting the issue have the exact same parts as the new RH3. That contradicts what others have reported and what Korg USA told me directly. They said the fix involves a new component that will be used in all RH3s going forward. Why would they designate a new different code to the new RH3s if it was simply a matter of a few production anomalies in the past? Furthermore, why would Rich come on here and tell is all new keybeds should get the OS update to account for the new keybed?