My faith in Korg is restored ( I have another keybed problem

Discussion relating to the Korg Kronos Workstation.

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Ojustaboo
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Post by Ojustaboo »

Gareth Underwood has phoned me up twice today to speak about my Kronos.

He used to be the service department manager and one of their top engineers, cant remember what his current job title is, only that he is a manager somewhere and is now overseeing my case due to his engineering experience.

He first phoned me up at around 9:30am and spent a long time discussing exactly when I noticed the problem, how to reproduce the problem, how I recorded it into Cubase etc so that he could do do exactly the same thing to try to replicate it.

He only saw the charts in the first post of this thread while on the phone to me (which looks like my letter to the MD got him assigned to my case swiftly) and hadn't at the time listened to my recordings.

He went through what the engineers had tried yesterday and what they were going to do today and said he would get back to me either later today or tomorrow.

He phoned back sometime around 2pm wanting to discuss where to go from there.

They haven't been able to reproduce the fault, so it looks like in transit it has fixed it's self.

He is in total agreement that there was a fault there, it's very obvious in the examples in the first post of this thread.

He went into great detail explaining to me how the keybed etc worked, his point being that the fault I was seeing on the one key, could only be a problem with the particular key, the weight mechanism on the key or the contacts. It couldn't be electronic due to the way the Kronos worked, else I would have seen it on other keys (that's my very basic interpretation of his technical diagnosis, so I might not have it 100% correct).

We discussed the problem with intermittent faults.

He then offered me a couple of options.

His preferred one (which I declined) was to send the Kronos back out to me today so I had it tomorrow and me run more tests myself to see if I could reproduce it. With Gareths years of engineering experience, he is convinced it's very likely to be one of those things that has fixed it's self that they are never going to discover what it was, for example a spec of dust on one of the contacts that has moved while in transit.

However, he did say that while he can say with 95% confidence that I would never see the problem again, he cant say it with 100% confidence and there is that tiny chance that whatever changed in transit to them if it wasn't a spec of dust falling out, would change back while sending out to me.

He also said that as I had registered that problem with them, even if it reoccurred down the line when the warranty expired, it would be covered as they had all the details on file (and even have video recordings of the tests they ran which he said I was willing to see if I wanted)

I pointed out that if I got it back and the problem was still there or reappeared a week or two later, again I would be without my Kronos for around two weeks while Korg picked it up and looked at it again.

Gareth fully agreed and understood this point.

He said he's happy to get the keybed stripped to see if there's any noticeable problem with the mechanics of that particular key, at least that way, something had been actually done which will give me more peace of mind.

I asked if they could also replace the contacts on that particular key. Gareth agreed without hesitation.

We then spoke of getting it back to me.

Gareth is getting the contacts changed and the key looked at this afternoon.

I asked if they couldn't arrange for a Saturday delivery after all I've been thorough.

Gareth said he could, but he would prefer not to for two reasons.

1) At this time of year with Christmas looming, even if they pay for Saturday delivery, it's still not guaranteed and he doesn't want it being chucked around UPS warehouses over the weekend.

2) He would much rather change the contacts today, and have loads of tests running on it all day tomorrow to triple check there's zero problems with it so that I get back a properly fully functioning machine I'll be happy with.

Which means if the tests all go OK, he will get it boxed up Monday and I will receive it Tuesday.

He said that the last thing he wants to happen is to change that strip of contacts and find there's a problem with the new strip (which of course raises questions about those from around the globe on this forum that have had reported theirs were replaced in about 1hr, as they obviously didn't have the tests done on them that mine will be having)

He said if I have any further questions not to hesitate about phoning him up.

He was extremely professional, polite, real, understanding of my frustration and gave me huge confidence that I will get back a working machine.

As I've said many many many times before, a little bit of decent communication goes a very long way in keeping the customer happy. I am very happy with how things are now progressing and would rather tests are done all day tomorrow and me wait a couple more days than try to get it back for Saturday.

Looks like I might get a happy ending :)
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Post by SanderXpander »

Trust me, me not posting here about it doesn't mean I "put up with it".

All I meant was don't let the frustration take over your life. I got stressed just reading your mails, it must be ten times worse for you. I hope you get back a working Kronos and you get to enjoy it this time!
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Sharp
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Post by Sharp »

Hi Ojustaboo

Take your finger off the send/receive button and go relax before you pass out. KORG are going to look after you. Your expectation of how fast KORG should reply to your emails are totally unreasonable by any standard. You are coming across as the customer from hell from what I can see.

Btw.... Last time I check I wasn't running “Twitter”
What's with the detailed time-line of how your day is going?

Just give us the burger, not the whole cow.

Regards
Sharp.
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pedro5
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Post by pedro5 »

Are you trying to moderate this poster for doing something wrong ?
Please explain.
Thanks.

Best Wishes.
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zardoz
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Post by zardoz »

Ojustaboo,
You have a lot of patience!!
The Truth is that it's really one of the most remarkable synths on the market
The other truth is that re-sale value is pretty bad (if you ever need to unload it) as warranties are not transferable.
Korg should have overnited you a "new" unit ,but i can't tell them what to do,
thats what I would do..
I have a 73 #4xx I hope it will stay functioning but I believe that we all
are a little "paranoid" of the key drop problem.
Hope all works out "good things comes to those who wait"
:D
Z >>
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Sharp
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Post by Sharp »

Hi pedro5.

Nope, I simply have an opinion.
More people will read what's posted too if it's to the point.

As I said, we don’t need the Cow, just give us the burger. Do you understand what I mean when I say that?

Regards
Sharp.
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jimknopf
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Post by jimknopf »

Translation:
It's reasonable to post results instead of detailed process diaries. :wink:
I completely agree with Sharp on that.

This does not change anything about the two crucical points I mentioned above: here it is definitely Korg's job to change their behavior and avoid completely unacceptable customer hassle with a new Kronos, so far forcing too many customers to send it back and forth, with not so few of them going through that several times.

From my view this is an absolute NO GO area for ANY company no matter selling what at 3000$ or more. This may happen in rare cases, but the known cases in forums alone show that it happens much too often.
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
pedro5
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Post by pedro5 »

Thanks Sharp.
I now know what you mean.

Personally,I do like to read all the details(diary,or not... :) )but realize that it can be a little long winded for this forum.

Another member mentioned "Paranoia" about keybed problems, so getting the whole story may be relevant for those who are worried.
However,fairness to all readers must also be considered and finding a balance is the key.(no pun intended...).

I'm sure this will get sorted eventually,as Korg are also keen to rectify matters.

Best Wishes.
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Ojustaboo
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Post by Ojustaboo »

I take it I'm rambling too much :lol:

Going to post part (the relevant part) of a long post I posted on Pianoworld last month.

The reason I originally posted this was that people were asking for advice, saying that a teacher was impossible for them, and rather than give the advice they asked for, they were told to get a teacher and their reasoning for not getting a teacher was constantly being questioned.

As it happened, the actual guy I was responding to, it was a misunderstanding by both of us as to where the other person was coming from and we ended up having great mutual respect for each other. But my post was still valid for numerous other posters on that site and many thanked me for posting it.

I'm not after any sort of sympathy by reposting this, I just want you all to understand why this thread has become like it has.

[First part removed as irrelevant for this discussion]

As soon as you bring illness (and many other things like wanting to be able to afford food regularly) into the equation, saying someone should get a teacher, and sort of implying you don't know why being disabled should affect that decision, well it shows me you haven't much experience as to how different illnesses can affect different people.

I'm ill. 15 years ago I was earning £42k, for the last 12 years I haven't been able to work and the hospital specialists won't let me even consider part time work. Last year I received £5200 in state benefits, £100 a week, and that's gone up by a little each year.

My wife works, we are financially fine but we don't have much spare money at all due to me not earning. She recently treated me to a Korg Kronos 88 which wasn't cheap, but she knows that I hardly leave the house, music is something I enjoy, and she is happy for the family to go without a holiday for another few years for me to have such a nice treat.

But even if I actually wanted a teacher, we couldn't afford one. But it's far more complicated than that.

Every one hour I'm up, I have to take a 15 min rest.

Watching TV, reading a book, listening to an audio book, playing my keyboard, being in a room sitting down talking to someone, none of that counts as rest. So if I'm watching a film on tv, I have to pause it and go into the other room, put on some chill out music and sit in my armchair, arms and legs relaxed, eyes closed.

If I went to see a teacher, the time putting on my shoes etc isn't rest, the walk to the car isn't rest, neither is the journey in the car. Then there's the lesson, then there's the drive home.

Chances are I wouldn't end up back in my armchair relaxing within the hour and if I don't, then the next day or two I will spend mostly asleep and won't have the energy to play my keyboard at all.

But it's worse than that, the 15 min rest every hour is for when I'm doing very little at home. As soon as going out is put into the equation or having to meet people at a certain time, that's a different thing altogether.

This morning I had a doctors appointment where all I had to do was have my blood pressure taken both standing and sitting, squeeze a handgrip three times to measure how hard I can grip things, then blow into a device three times to measure my lung capacity.

My appointment was at 9am and I was done by 9:15. She stressed she wanted me to go home and do virtually nothing for the rest of the day as that 15 mins (along with having to get there) would have been too much for me.

All that aside, often I sleep for hours in the day time, there's never two identical times I can play, I might feel up to practising at 10 am tomorrow, 3pm the next day, not have the energy to practice at all the next, and happily be able to practice/play anytime the following day, just pausing for my rests every hour.

So if I wanted a teacher, I would have to find one that could either come to me, was 15 mins or less drive away, was dirt cheap, and I can phone up and say I will be well enough to come right now, but I can't guarantee if I will be well enough in two hours time, yet alone a fixed time and date next week.

What's more, if you knocked on my front door and I answered it, you would presume I was a normal healthy man.

Many people have many reasons they can't have teachers, people with physical or mental (or both) disabilities where they are fighting with pain, breathing, headaches, not being able to concentrate for periods of time, etc, none of these can book an appointment in advance as they dont know how well they will be on the day.

Then you have those where the stress of meeting with a teacher is simply too much (hard to understand if your well, but can be very very draining if your not).

And many of us choose a musical outlet.

13 years ago I could walk miles, swam regularly, went to the gym, had a big garden I enjoyed working on etc etc etc. In the past few years I've just existed really, three months go by and I struggle to find something I've actually done except for watching tv or browsing the web (can't concentrate on books anymore, have joined audible as if I didn't listen to them, that would be another pleasure lost).

So I buy a cheap 2nd hand keyboard a year or so ago, and I finally have something I enjoy that isn't tv or computer (I used to have many synths all hooked up to my Atari computer years ago before I got ill) and my wife sees how much I'm enjoying it and how I have a sort of purpose/outlet again. So she buys me some computer synths (Native Instruments Komplete), my daughters at Uni and my wife gave her the money to buy me the educational version of Cubase for my PC, and this year she treats me to my Kronos that I've been going on about since it was mentioned early last year.

And I'm very very happy.

I want to learn to play better, I've got an online course recommended by someone on this board (play piano today) and I'm enjoying myself having fun and learning well in my opinion.

With the wealth of YouTube vids etc, there's plenty of info out there for the person like me that wants to learn themselves.

Thing is, I'm usually very very reluctant to ask questions etc on this board as I know someone will simply respond " you need a teacher"

And absolutely no one should have to explain themselves to you like I have above to justify themselves for your benefit when they say a teacher is out of the question.

If someone says they cant have a teacher, who are you to judge their reasonings and question them when they say this?

I only described my personal situation here to show you how unfair it is for you and others to keep saying this.

Please stop.

Best

Joe
I've posted that to try and show why I am acting like I am.

I am a very intelligent person, I have a very very active mind.

I am very very mechanically and electronically etc minded. I can re-plumb my entire house, rewire it etc, or I could strip a car engine down.

I have a workshop out the back with most things in it, wood turning lath, band saw etc, lovely Myford metal lathe that I started stripping down about 4 years ago and haven't even got as far as getting near finishing stripping it, yet alone putting it back together again.

I'm also very good with a soldering iron and have no real problems taking anything apart whether it's a washing machine, or I need to replace the capacitors in my Sky boxes power supply.

But due to my health, I might be very good at it, but I'm rarely able to do much. In the past 4 years, I doubt I've spent a total of 8hrs in my workshop

I started refurbishing the kitchen 12 years ago. I probably end up doing 1 to 2 weeks more to it each year but it's still not finished. Luckily my wife is very patient. I have got friends that would do it, but I want to do it myself

Otherwise I sort of feel useless. It might take me years, but it's my project and I have a purpose in finishing it (hope you can grasp what I mean)

It makes me ill having the worry of having to do things at a certain time, having to be somewhere at a certain time, or having to deal with things when they go wrong.

Many people I know turn to me when they have problems with their PC's. Most I have no problem with, I find tinkering with a PC at my leisure very therapeutic.

However, the way my health affects my mental state, I hate having things outstanding where I'm expected to do something.

What I mean is, a friend dropped their laptop off last week, they fully understand about my health, said they are in no hurry for it back, they have access to another one and to look at it at my leisure.

That's totally fine, zero stress for me at all.

Then there's people like one of my neighbours that some idiot told I was good with computers. He will knock at my door (often at very silly times like 10pm) , say he's having problems with his PC and could I have a quick look at it. If I say I cant as I don't feel well, he will say something like "OK no worries, what about Monday afternoon, I'm in all afternoon".

The end result of that is I cant handle the stress of knowing I have to be there Monday afternoon, so regardless of how ill I am, whether I should be resting, I simply end up going over straight away and sorting it.

If your well, that's probably very hard to understand, I sort of go OCD about these things, something that never happened before I got ill.

The reality is, if I look at this year, I've probably been round 5 friends houses looking at their PC's for them, been to the supermarket down the road about 10 times with my wife, been into my local town twice and gone with my wife to take my offspring to their university (which then makes me very ill the next few weeks, but it's something I'm determined to do regardless). I've also had numerous doctor and hospital appointments.

I don't think I've hardly left the house except for that.

I've watched TV, I've listened to loads of audio books, I play Lord of the Rings Online (which I find therapeutic most of the time, and the guild/kin I'm in the people know about my health and understand fully), and I've played my keyboard/cubase/ Komplete.

That's about it for the entire year.

And it's not like I've spent hours each day heavily engrossed with playing, it's been more like,

Monday, too ill to play, Tuesday play for 45 mins, Wed, too tired to play, Thu a 4 hr session (with rests) Fri too ill to play etc etc etc

When I have things on my mind and I'm very tired, I often go off on one like I am now, as if I stop and think, that will be it, I will have to stop typing completely and go to sleep.

Anyway, I'm not after any form of sympathy, I'm just trying to explain about my twitter like diary :)

I haven't got another keyboard to play, so for the past two weeks, its literally been TV, Lord of the Rings Online, on my ipad and little else.

Sure I can play with Komplete using my qwerty keyboard, but without an actual piano keyboard to play I don't really enjoy it.

The way my mind works due to my health, things being wrong stress me out. I need to know about my Kronos fix, I need to know what they are doing about it and I need to know when I'm having it back.

It's very hard to explain.

If I was well, who cares if I'm without my Kronos for a few weeks, who cares if they take a week to get back to me, it's annoying but life can be like that, I could do loads of other things like go out to my workshop, go swimming, taker my dogs to the beach or whatever.

But I'm not well. I'm sitting at home feeling well enough to play my keyboard but not having one to play and it frustrates me.

Hence I become the customer from hell for Korg.

I was talking to my 21 yr old daughter on the phone earlier, I read what sharp had written and laughed, she also laughed but said it wouldn't surprise her in the slightest if I was the customer from hell, but she added that if her health was like mine, she would be too.

It's due to my health that I went to so much trouble initially to make sure I didn't receive the Kronos with the older style contacts on because I know how loopy it would send me.

Sorry for posting another very long post, I'm just trying to explain to you why I am acting like I am and why this Kronos problem is so bad for me.

Hopefully come Tuesday, it will all be sorted :)

best

Joe
pedro5
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Post by pedro5 »

Please forgive the following contribution,for those who prefer just the burger version.......feel free not to read any further. :D

Joe.
At last,some progress for you,come Tuesday a fault free Kronos will be at your fingertips.

Thanks for posting all that you have regarding this "saga",although some may well prefer a shorter version,I've been reading with interest,including some concern.
(Not only about the Kronos issue,but also about your own well being……I do sincerely hope that your health won't be affected too much.
Please do take care and work within reasonable,personal limits.I'm sure you know what I mean).

Obviously,future Kronos problems may happen to some of us as well,(the paranoia effect,previously mentioned),not only the ones already reported,but now it could also be dust getting into the instrument…..which could move around during transit…..or whatever…??…

I'm sure that the manufacturing processes would eliminate dust entry at that time,so I'm assuming it can get in later,during usage,perhaps, which does promote a concern if
an engineer thinks it can cause problems with the keypads etc.
If this being the case,is there an alternative method to minimise the effect other than the usual vacuum cleaning,I wonder.
Assuming that most keyboard owners do try to keep the dreaded dust levels down with a high success rate anyway,what else can we do to help prevent possible
problems,…………Would an air canister be safe to use ? (Yes,I am joking).

I was also amused by the "soak test" while the keyboard was at the service centre,which conjured up strange images.
Perhaps it means something to the techies,though,so I won't say much more about it.

Please do keep us(or perhaps just me…) informed about any developments,I do really hope you get the Kronos that will be the instrument it's meant to be.

Best Wishes.
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Post by GregC »

jimknopf wrote:Translation:
It's reasonable to post results instead of detailed process diaries. :wink:
I completely agree with Sharp on that.

This does not change anything about the two crucical points I mentioned above: here it is definitely Korg's job to change their behavior and avoid completely unacceptable customer hassle with a new Kronos, so far forcing too many customers to send it back and forth, with not so few of them going through that several times.

From my view this is an absolute NO GO area for ANY company no matter selling what at 3000$ or more. This may happen in rare cases, but the known cases in forums alone show that it happens much too often.
jim, you have referred to other forums as a basis of issues/known issues to support your statements.

Since the Kronos has sold in the thousands, I think you need to show actual numbers to make your case.

This will help quantify what is taking place and is a fair way to approach
it. I also think we need to be clear if disti's and or retailers are recycling returns into the hands of consumer. You would need to subtract this in your analysis in case you or anyone is interested in quantifying the issue.
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Post by summers2 »

I have my own thoughts about the Kronos and the quality of the unit. But one thing is clear. They are really standing behind the unit sold to Ojustaboo. If that is indicative of their customer commitment and the way that they, business as usual, stand behind their products, that's worth an "A+". I feel better about the Krome that I ordered.

I still don't understand why they haven't just sat down on the Kronos and totally corrected all the problems that it seems to have. If I were in charge, I would say, nobody leaves until this thing is right.

Some of the things seem so simple. For instance, the loose front lip of the 61 key. Why would that even get out? Somebody needs to answer for that. (internally). The loose data wheel. The need for spacers. You don't need a brain surgeon. Keys sticking on the front lip. A loud noisy fan that even the purchasers can fix. What's that about?

I went in the Guitar center today in a large city some distance from me and they had the Krome 61 and the Kronos 88 on stands one above the other. I had been there before and played these units. One key on the 88 was kind of sticking the first time I went there. I turned them both on at the same time today and I noticed that several of the keys on the Kronos were sticking bad. You really had to push them to get them to play. I would be very angry if that had been my board.

I will say, though, I didn't hear the fan at all. It was noisy in there so one might hear it at home(but I didn't hear it there).

I played the Krome for a good period and determined that it was easily worth what I paid. The pianos sounded just like the Kronos to me. The keybed is not great, but neither is it bad enough to register a complaint at these prices. The keystroke is short and will take some getting used to. If the quality is there, I believe that I will like it.

I liked the touch screen a lot. It is clear, easy to see(for me) and seems easy to get around on.

Maybe one day, I will get a kronos. Of course, it is a much better keyboard in so many areas. Many don't apply to me but I would like them anyway.
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jimknopf
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Post by jimknopf »

Greg, I know enough keyboarders in the German scene, both personally and by long forum contacts, to get a clue about the amount of failure, without having total worldwide numbers and statistics.

I myself first thought that people complaining were the typical rare exceptions, which happen with any modern keyboard (you can check that in older posts from me). I do not think that any longer since some months.

Imagine: people who followed my enthusiasm and bought a Kronos, just to find themselves in a similar situation as Ojustaboo or Davidb (having a new expensive keyboard sent forth and back for fixes more than once with long waiting times), are of course extremely frustrated.

I want the Kronos to be a huge success and expect Korg to really iron out these kinds of failures. Maybe resellers sending faulty units to other customers are part of the problem (which would be bad enough), but the problem has to be solved at it's root, and a faulty new keyboard should be an extremely rare exception. Everything else is massively hurting reputation and leads to customer losses. The Kronos is MUCH too good and should not have to suffer from such issues.
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
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Post by Saxifraga »

Korg should just have recalled all units of the first batch for additional QC.
It´s not acceptable to sell products that should be able to replace a real piano with one that has often a malfunctioning RH3 keybed.

The Kronos 88 at my local store Justmusic in Berlin has the same fault (violet contacts) like my 73 but nobody cares about it. You only recognize this if you play soft piano pieces. With a Karma combi or Techno progs and Karma on you will be unable to find that fault. Maybe Korg speculated that many will not play piano on a machine that is supposed to have the best piano and EP and organ sounds.
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Saxifraga
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Post by Saxifraga »

pedro5 wrote:Thanks Sharp.
I now know what you mean.
...
Another member mentioned "Paranoia" about keybed problems, so getting the whole story may be relevant for those who are worried.
...
It has nothing to do with paranoia. :evil:
I used a tool that delivers facts. I used MIDI Monitor on my iPad and pressed many keys before and after they replaced my keybed at Korg.
It definitly does produce no more velocity values 1 and 0 when I press chords like it did before. I now barely get numbers below 5.
Only the release velocity gets down to 1 which is no problem it seems.

It's just measurable.
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