Requests for PA4x.

Discussion relating to the Korg Pa3X Arranger.

Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever

User avatar
karmathanever
Platinum Member
Posts: 10492
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:07 am

Post by karmathanever »

It's a bit chaotic if someone has thousands of styles, he must to be loading and deleting constantly.
If you have over a thousand styles already loaded on board but still constantly need to hear and play thousands more from a pen drive, then I agree - it would be chaotic enough just having that many styles - I like to stay with high quality authentic-sounding styles so I don't have thousands of spare styles hanging around.
the structure of styles in sets is relatively complex, and certainly less simple to use than Roland or Yamahas
This is why Korg styles are superior and so much more flexible and authentic than Yamaha and Roland mostly due to the CV structure.
You need to own a PA3X to realise this and also to realise that styles are much more "performance friendly" than Yamaha (i refer to latest PSRs and Tyros models) - critical functions in style playing are very inconveniently organised and actually missing in some instances.
Roland & Yamaha arrangers allow to listen and play styles directly from the pendrive, and so allow to have all your styles collection (thousands of styles) into pendrive, ready to listen or play at any time and directly. But korg styles need to be first loaded into keyboard, not only to play them, but to listen them too.
With the capability of having over a thousand styles on board the PA3X, most would not find this to be a major issue. If you spend a lot of time having to sift through thousands of additional styles, then I guess it might be a little easier to be able to audition them as you suggest.
How about a simple Quantize Strength parameter and Quantize Swing parameter when designing Styles so that every style does not have to be robotic and with straight eighths? Style play should also allow the user to adjust the swing value.
Buy or borrow a PA3X for a while, perform and record with it, then compare it to other "not-so-professional" arrangers like Tyros and many of your queries will be resolved....

Cheers

Pete :D
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
------------------------------------------------------------------
## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music :D
------------------------------------------------------------------
rbeach
Full Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:02 am

Post by rbeach »

I agree that it would be nice to preview styles from the USB drive. I, too, have thousands of styles...many of which are not that great. So, when sifting through them looking for the good ones, I have to load one up, listen to it, decide it isn't worth keeping in the user/favorites, load the next one, etc. It sure would be nice if I could more easily preview them and decide which ones I really want to put in the user/favorite banks.

[/quote]
User avatar
bugzoo
Full Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:53 pm

Post by bugzoo »

The PA1x could temporarily load and play a Style from Hard Drive. I wonder why the PA3x can't. Seems like a big step backwards.
Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

I think the issue is about 'auditioning' styles. It's an awful lot easier being able to play the styles from pen drive, and then load in the ones you like, to loading it ALL in, and then having to laboriously delete all but the few you can use.

Perhaps a minor distinction, but in practice, VERY time saving.
Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

karmathanever wrote:Hi Dikikeys

Firstly, these are just my personal reactions to your interesting thread having owned, performed and played arrangers for many years (Yamahas, Rolands, Casios and Korgs)
The way I see 'density' working is to create a reasonably busy drum part, lots of hi-hats, ghost snares, subsidiary beats and accents. Then lay a 'mask' over the simplest element of the beat (just the main beats to do a simple groove) so they play ALL the time. Then, as the arranger detects you playing faster (more notes per beat, for example) it adds back in the other notes (more masks, more gradation of the effect) to reflect YOUR playing more.
Same thing with rhythm guitar, percussion, even string lines, anything you feel works well.
As mentioned before, I would find this frustrating - I need to be in control of that, so the option to control that would be nice (which we sort-of have already).
This would frustrate me a bit like the SA sounds on the Tyros - they have a mind of their own and do things (although pleasant) that I want control over.
This is essentially what great real players will do. If someone starts to go off, and get busier, they will respond to a certain degree. I think that COULD be done on an arranger. In fact, I think I remember that one of the now defunct arranger makers (Technics, possibly, I can't remember for sure) used to have a sort of version of this.
Again - could be nice but as an option! Diving into a wild fast flute solo doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the "band" goes wild - sometimes quite the opposite. If this was a built-in feature I think it would make me nervous - even from the point of view that the developers may have a totally different concept to mine in this regard. I see this feature as having a 'strength' parameter. Obviously, the more 'masks', the more gradation of the effect
BTW, I don't think that the old Chord 'Track' feature on Korg's used to use the knowledge of the next chord coming to create voice leading and walking transitions. It simply acted as a trigger for the arranger's 'normal' structure.
Correct - there would be thousands of permutations to consider here to even remotely satisfy all the keyboard owners. Can't imagine how the developers could even plan for this.
Only things like BIAB actually do this (to a certain degree). But if BIAB can do it offline, well, once a Chord Sequence is laid down, no reason why an arranger can't analyze it and create the same kind of voice leading...
So we are talking here about "playing back" a previously recorded "sequence" In a way, yes. But the 'previously recorded sequence' is simply style play, with some modifications to lines now the arranger knows the NEXT chord. BIAB can process (in a fraction of a second) the chord structure you have told it, and substitute leading lines for lines that go nowhere (the usual arranger form). I see no reason why the processor in an arranger can't do the same, once it knows what the next chord IS
In the meantime, the FIRST thing the Korg Chord Sequencer needs is a way to SAVE CS's once you create them, and load them linked to a Performance or Songbook entry. Then, you could create the Chord Track in advance. Even if you don't have step editing, you can always create them slowed WAY the heck down, to the point that you CAN play them accurately with no errors. Then speed them back up again! That gives you much of the old Chord Track functionality back...
Interesting concept but this seems just like playing along to a MIDI file (unless I have totally misunderstood). Yes, you have. A sequence will have the style, the fills and the variations set in stone. The ONLY thing that is set in stone with a chord sequence is the CHORDS. You can build it, lower it, even change rhythm, make it sound utterly different. Only the CHORDS remain the same.
Oh, and BTW... maybe it's a bit early to start complaining, but although Korg have JUST doubled the Fills to four from the PA2X's two, it is still short of Roland's six, and even THAT is woefully short of the 16 needed to have a dedicated transition for each Variation to Variation transition. Simply upping the number of fills means a more logical, less 'jumpy' transition across Variations. Something that has been a Korg weakness for a long time...

I wouldn't ever want 16 FILLs - I find having PA3X's 5 FILLs plus the ability to use INTROs 2&3 and even ENDINGS 2&3 for additional FILLs is more than I'll ever need. Plus the ability to use FILLs, INTROs and ENDINGs as additional VARs for a style. But as I said these are my personal views. Thing is, you still get some quite jumpy transitions with just four fills. Six is better, but there are still times the transition doesn't flow. Don't worry about the complexity... It is being done in the background, because Auto-Fill is on. The only thing you need to do is be amazed at how perfect each fill is for what you asked it to do!
Yes, things are better. But there is room for MUCH improvement.
I guess "improvement" is in the eyes and ears of the beholder - adding all the wishlists, building in KARMA etc..etc.. will still never turn it into a keyboard that suit everyone and possibly push into a high price bracket. Korg have to sell these things and make money to survive. I am only trying to suggest ways that the arranger could be more responsive to OUR playing that could be added by software updates ONLY. Unlike your next suggestion (SSD streaming) which will up the cost, none of this makes the instrument one red cent costlier.

I think the next move may be SSD and improved hardware (CPU etc..). Arrangers seem to sit behind the "workstation" technology and then gradually catch up.
A little more expansion flexibility would be welcomed - e.g. RAM!! (why do we have to buy the most expensive RAM (256MB - TINY!!!) and then have to drop the existing 128MB chip in the garbage???

PA4X (if that is what it is called) will be interesting.....

Cheers

Pete :D
Gotwald
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:18 pm

Post by Gotwald »

Yes, auditioning styles is a problem for the korg styles management system, but not the only one.
If someone has, for example, a thousand styles loaded into kb, and want to buy the USB pendrive with 5000 korg styles sold on ebay... how can he listen these styles and select a few to load them into kb? Is a huge job, because he can load and listen perhaps 200 styles each time. And when he has chosen 200 good styles to load into kb forever, he can`t load more styles yet, nor audition more... He will have to delete, load, delete, load ...
But that's not all. Moreover, as styles come usually grouped into sets, it's impossible to know what styles are inside each set. You have to load them on the keyboard not only for using or playing with, not only for auditioning, but even to know what styles are into the set!!!.
No one doubts that Korg has better styles . But I think these problems are important: something that could be very easy (to audition styles from pendrive, then choose the ones you want, or play them directly from pendrive) become something extremely annoying.
And it is even more annoying when you consider that neither Roland and Yamaha have these problems. Twenty years ago, rolands and yamahas allowed only a few styles loaded from a floppy. But they have evolved a lot in this topic, while Korg remains the same. Why?. I don’t know, I can´t understand the reason. But, in the fact, I know some people who have finished buying rolands or Yamahas for this reason, only for it. It is a pity.
I would like if Korg can solve this. I wish that Korg can seriously consider this issue some day, and give a solution in a next revision of its O.S.
Bachus
Platinum Member
Posts: 3127
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:59 am

Post by Bachus »

Gotwald wrote:In my opinion, the biggest thing that should be improved in the new pa4x and all new korg arrangers, is its styles management. Roland & Yamaha arrangers allow to listen and play styles directly from the pendrive, and so allow to have all your styles collection (thousands of styles) into pendrive, ready to listen or play at any time and directly. But korg styles need to be first loaded into keyboard, not only to play them, but to listen them too.
It's a bit chaotic if someone has thousands of styles, he must to be loading and deleting constantly.
Similarly, the structure of styles in sets is relatively complex, and certainly less simple to use than Roland or Yamahas, where there are not styles sets, and nobody must extract a style from a set and to put it in another set.
Having used rolands and Yamahas for a long time, I find incomprehensible that Korg has not modernized its archaic styles management, which seems to be stuck in the era where there were no pendrives.
I think this comes with the new requested i86 architecture... With streaming samples from SSD and fast pedrives, same should go for styles, midi files...etc..
Synthesizerplayer
Full Member
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: ON, Canada
Contact:

Post by Synthesizerplayer »

Hi

The Pa4x will have to compete with the T5. I hope that they make an oriental version available direct from Korg and not some third party like they have with the Pa600Qt

Regards
Asena
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant
Posts: 2604
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:44 am
Location: Sweden/Malmoe
Contact:

Post by Asena »

NAD THE LIBANESE VERSION pa 3 x, I HATE THAT!
www.globalsound.se

KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10




MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
LOTS OF SAMPLE SOUNDS!
KorgPaManager V 5
Synthesizerplayer
Full Member
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: ON, Canada
Contact:

Post by Synthesizerplayer »

Asena wrote:NAD THE LIBANESE VERSION pa 3 x, I HATE THAT!
Me too. I want from Korg Directly

Regards
Bachus
Platinum Member
Posts: 3127
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:59 am

Post by Bachus »

Synthesizerplayer wrote:Hi

The Pa4x will have to compete with the T5. I hope that they make an oriental version available direct from Korg and not some third party like they have with the Pa600Qt

Regards
The pa3x is allready at the same sound quallity as the T5 but it has all the pro features missing on the T5...


The Pa4x should leave the t5 dozens and dozens of miles behind biting the dust..




So what could be added to the Pa4x..

A massively improved sound engine, combining the best things of Korg Kronos like samples playing directly from disk and a super fast huge SSD.. With new features like the option to create stuff like the tyros ensemble voices, or your own organs, however i dont think all of the Kronos engines, espescially the synth engines would add much to an arranger

A whole new effects section with pro quallity effects, which becomes possible with all the new processor power from a topline Intel based cpu for the needed processor power

A huge 12" HD touchscreen.

6 or 8 knobs for direct controll of the sounds

Audio capabillities, for sequencing and styles... Not only the drum parts( which is the easy way out that tyros choose) but also from guitar, bass and accoustical instrument parts... Which would benefit much much more from a good audio style then just the drums.

Integration between styles and Karma... Or add Karma scenes to the styleparts..

Full computer integration over a lan connection... Allowing the Kronos to be the VST host and having full access to the vsts and effects from the Pa3x..
Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

And while you're at it, add all that and don't make it $2000 more expensive! LOL :roll:
Bachus
Platinum Member
Posts: 3127
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:59 am

Post by Bachus »

Dikikeys wrote:And while you're at it, add all that and don't make it $2000 more expensive! LOL :roll:
€3500 is a good price for a totl arranger with a lot of processor power, that has the latest technollogy onboard.... And is build to last ( tank)
User avatar
karmathanever
Platinum Member
Posts: 10492
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:07 am

Post by karmathanever »

And while you're at it, add all that and don't make it $2000 more expensive!
+1
That would be the biggest problem
I would not pay $7,000 for an arranger keyboard (PA1XPro and PA2XPro were this RRP here)

At this point in time I am caring less and less about the alleged "PA4X" - let's face it, it will still have a huge amount of the technology and styles etc we already have in PA3X.

My combination of PA3X and Kronos is leaving me not really needing any more….

BUT if Korg do put a quality coffee cup holder in the next model, I may rethink….. :wink:

Pete :D
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
------------------------------------------------------------------
## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music :D
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bachus
Platinum Member
Posts: 3127
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:59 am

Post by Bachus »

karmathanever wrote:
And while you're at it, add all that and don't make it $2000 more expensive!
+1
That would be the biggest problem
I would not pay $7,000 for an arranger keyboard (PA1XPro and PA2XPro were this RRP here)

At this point in time I am caring less and less about the alleged "PA4X" - let's face it, it will still have a huge amount of the technology and styles etc we already have in PA3X.

My combination of PA3X and Kronos is leaving me not really needing any more….

BUT if Korg do put a quality coffee cup holder in the next model, I may rethink….. :wink:

Pete :D
I dont see the price issue that much... if they use standard PC hardware, like the Kronos allready has...hardware design costs will not be the issue..


So most of the power from a new product comes from the software development... Most of those costs for the new engine where allready made and paid by Oasys buyers... thats why the Kronos delivers the same and more then the Oasys at a much lower price..

The same goes for a PA4x with Kronos technollogy inisde, they can use most of the code of the Kronos modules and add it to the PA4x...

Same goes for the stuff inside the current PA3x... its mostly software under the hood... and the code is there... it just requires them to port it to a new (but still linux based) platform..


Korg is at a huge advantage against any other hardware keyboard manufactorer, because they allready have the code and their code (certainly the Kronos code) is very modular...

And thats why, if they keep building on that code, they can deliver much more technollogy for the same money then any other hardware keyboard vendor can...


And it only becomes better... there is open source Linux software for grabs available that allready supports the things needed by what we call audio styles... it does not have to be programmed from scratch, its just a matter of implementation... its the same software Ketron licenses for its audio styles...


With software being modular these days, and hardware being cheeper then ever, good products dont have to be very expensive... The proof is in the Roland, the Kronos and the PA900..


Even implementing VST´s in an Intel based lLinux operated system (because thats what the Kronos for example is) should not be that hard... because they would only have to add the right modules to the Kernel and program an interface...


its all there, they are using Linux... so even the layer between the hardware and the operating system is allready available...


The reason why the Oasys was so expensive is the fact that most of the current code was written for it... and there where only a few thousands units that had to pay for all the development costs... But that code is still there...


And thats why only Korg currently can deliver an advanced arranger for a price lower then a Tyros 5...
Post Reply

Return to “Korg Pa3X”