Kronos "outputs" quality

BSV73 · Post by **BSV73** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:17 pm

danatkorg wrote:
BSV73 wrote:
SanderXpander wrote:Since it's not really possible to record a summed mono signal over USB, are you saying that you summed a stereo USB recording to mono, played it back over your K8, and found the sound better than straight from the Kronos from L/Mono to K8? Using the same cables?
Even then that would mostly say something about the coloration from your interface vs your Kronos.

What interface are you using?
Sander, i'm not recording at all, i'm playing the keyboard 'live' - just in my studio with these setups.

Like I said:
Set-up 1: straight from the L/mono to the K8
Set-up2: stereo USB to Logic, then the same 1 cable out of the Native Instruments Audio Kontrol 1 straight to the K8

So yes that is what i'm saying: the Audio Kontrol sounds better that the Kronos outs (if that is DAC or not I don't know)

The other point is that if I A/B the Audio Kontrol vs the Kronos for VST playback (Scarbee Rhodes, Purgatory Creek MKV, Galaxy Vintage D), it is the same, the Audio Kontrol sounds better and the Kronos loses something.

(perhaps I need to try Kronos L/R vs the Audio Kontrol 1/2 straight to the K8 to be 100% sure, but i'm 99% positive that this isn't going to add the difference back that is missing from the kronos audio)

Trust me, It is not a summing issue.
Actually, as I noted previously, the signal is not remotely the same between your setups 1 and 2 - and the summing in Setup 1 is exactly the issue.

Setup 1: L + R summed to mono
Setup 2: L only

Setup 1 will have the signal from the R channel, so in some senses it's more complete, but depending on other factors may have significant phasing.

Setup 2 will be missing everything from the R channel, but will not have problems with phasing.

These are *massive* differences between the two signals, which will completely dwarf any other differences.

Ok Dan/Sander, I get that you are not convinced as you think it is a stereo/mono/summing thing.

My next test will be Kronos L/R straight into the K8
vs
Audio Kontrol 1/2 straight into the K8

I'll report back.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:32 pm

Dan is correct. You're summing to mono directly on the Kronos and not on your DAW signal. This is why I mentioned summing the USB signal to mono before outputting it to one channel. If you simply take one side of the stereo image, you're not summing to mono and you will not have phase issues, even if you may run into other issues from missing one half of the stereo pair.

EDIT:
Oh sorry I only just noticed your last post. I'm pretty convinced that this is the issue, I hope you get to resolve it to your satisfaction.

BSV73 · Post by **BSV73** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:27 am

Ok guys, so I tested the following - this time with my new k12.

Kronos L/R into the qsc.
vs
Kronos into logic the the audio kontrol 1 1/2 out straight into the qsc.

Both using the same balanced 1/4 stereo for both set-ups.

Same result. The sgx pianos sound richer, cx-3 isn't as harsh. Everything generally sounds better.

I know you guys don't believe it bu somewhere along the line the audio kontrol produces a better sounding signal than the kronos.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:50 am

Since the summing issue (a very big difference between summing and not!) was missed, it seems possible that other things might be missed as well. You're also listening through PA speakers with not-quite-full bandwidth. Gain staging would be my first point of investigation - both the output gain of the speakers, and the input gain from the KRONOS vs the Kontrol 1. Since I believe that you genuinely want to figure this out, that's where I'd look next.

As a point of comparison: I use converters with much better specs than the Kontrol 1, with standard full-bandwidth studio monitors (HR-824), and a very well-treated room. What I hear is that the KRONOS sounds great, as did the OASYS before it. Tastes can of course vary.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:12 am

I'm still interested to hear what the difference is if you sum the Kontrol 1 to mono before outputting it. Thr K12 has multiple inputs apparently? How does it treat them?

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:27 pm

Another possibility: if the analog outputs don't sound right, it's possible that there's a hardware problem in your particular KRONOS.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:31 pm

That's what I was thinking too; perhaps some short, causing summing even when both inputs are plugged in?

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:55 pm

Might try using the Global Audio page's LR Bus Indiv. Assign parameter to route L/R to the 1/2 or 3/4 outputs, and see if that sounds the same. (Note that the individual output pairs do not have mono summing, so a single cable connected to individual outputs 1 or 3 will NOT sound the same as a single cable connected to L/MONO.)

geoelectro · Post by **geoelectro** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:06 am

BSV73 wrote:
geoelectro wrote:The audio that goes to the HP and L/R outs are from the same DAC. There is some difference in the analog circuits as the HP out needs more current.

In my service business I find a number of keyboards in my shop with output damage from Phantom Power. A good test for that would be to compare the L/R outputs with say the 1&2 or 3&4 outputs since those aren't typically run to a house board with Phantom Power. In the Kronos, all those outputs have identical analog circuits.

Geo
Geo,
isn't the DAC for the L/R and your HP (i'm guessing you are talking about a hp brand computer here?) be different? Because the audio is digital via USB to the hp, then whatever audio interface is the DAC in that case???

Sorry, HP = HeadPhones.

Geo

SeedyLee · Post by **SeedyLee** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:17 am

BSV73 wrote: Like I said:
Set-up 1: straight from the L/mono to the K8
Set-up2: stereo USB to Logic, then the same 1 cable out of the Native Instruments Audio Kontrol 1 straight to the K8
...
Trust me, It is not a summing issue.

The first setup will absolutely give you a different sound to the second - because of summing.

The first setup will force the Kronos to sum the L+R signals.

The Audio Kontrol does not do summing when one plug is connected, so you will only be hearing the left channel.

For a fairer comparison of DACs, you either need to:
A) Ensure the channel in Logic is set to mono (and ensure its summing method approximates how the summing is performed on the Kronos)
B) Use one of the Group 1/2 outputs, with the group configured for stereo. (Preferred).

The samples in the Kronos downmix to mono rather nicely, so it may not sound like summing issues, but either way summing is occurring in your setup.

In my opinion, the analogue outputs on the Kronos are really rather good.

BSV73 · Post by **BSV73** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:45 am

Dan @ korg,
Maybe you will know this..
obviously it is technically possible to to bypass the kronos outputs by using a usb cable to a daw and then out of a high end interface like an rme or apogee like I have been doing with the audio kontrol.

So wouldn't this be bypassing the kronos DAC and therefore enable you to get a better quality output using a higher end DAC? Theoretically of course...

Sander - yes the K12 has two inputs with individual level control on both. The kronos sounds great through it in mono for live applications.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:51 am

Yes. You'd just need some seriously expensive ones to get a significant improvement over what's in the Kronos. Even then I'd be surprised if it would be a very noticeable difference, and it certainly wouldn't on the average PA speaker.

Something else must be going on.