Kronos - new sound libraries announced by Korg

[Bruce Lychee]

We can't speak generally or even particularly about every single SN patch and how it could be recreated on the Kronos, but for the strings patch for example, I don't see where's the difference whether you press the SW button on the jp80 or on the Kronos to get a pizzicato sound? Or a vibraphone roll/tremolo instead of the plain hit?
I create such variations quite often on my non supernatural keyboards.
I'm not saying that everything can be simply recreated as it's now on the jp80, but some things certainly can be done.

Some things like switching to a pizzicato sound can be done easily, but the SN articulations are deeper than that. For each sound, they try to take into account the elements that make it sound more natural. When you are dealing with an orchestral section of strings, you aren't going to worry about all the individual instrument nuances, but things like which direction the bows are going based on chord changes are reflected. On individual instruments like the violin, there is more focus on the nuances of the instrument and the articulations reflect that. The SN articulations work differently than keyswitch articulations that trigger different samples, even if you might use a switch to activate them. I assume using modeling and sounds that have no velocity switching allows for a different approach than pure samples.

In any case, my only point is that I would love a Kronos expansion pack that incorporates keyswitch articulations for many of their sounds. I think it would really make it complete on the sonic side.

[SanderXpander]

EXer, considering that we can hear the new piano EXs before we buy it, who cares what it's sampled from? It matters much more how it sounds. If the sample collection is crap, it doesn't help you one iota if it was taken from your personal favorite Bosendorfer.

[GregC]

Quite alot, but articulations also can be used for electric instruments like bass and guitar. I think live musicians might not care so much, but you can imagine that it is quite useful in the studio. If it is done via keyswtich, which is how I imagine Kronos articulations would have to work, the player can always choose not to use them.

exactly, there are 100's of acoustic instruments to emulate/produce. I know you appreciate this, Articulation adds character to the instrument.

I will always say , you can't expect Kronos ( or any workstation) to be all things to all people . Thats just not possible.

Speaking of bass, I think Kronos uses SW1 for additional articulation. For that matter, there are 100's of bass guitars to choose from plus all the FX.

Lets always circle back to the JP 80
Does the JP80 have bass harmonics(2 high notes) in their articulation ? That would impress me.

Yes, but Greg, my point is simply that working on that aspect of the Kronos would really round out the excellent instrument it already is. I would pay alot for a sound package that offered full blown articulations. Without those, any additional sounds of those type really aren't that useful to me. Furthermore, software companies and companies like Roland are doing it for all of their sounds, however with different approaches.

I think you wold be really surprised at the depth of the Roland articulations. Haven't checked for harmonics, but will do so.

you should check out posts by BurningBush. He used a mouth/wind controller with the Kronos for trumpet sounds and other instruments with an excellent result.

This shows there is more than 1 way to get at articulation. Wind instruments are difficult to emulate.

I hope to get at JP 80 soon to understand what they have done with their SN modeling.

[burningbusch]

Most people that I know don't try to use keyswitches in real time, I know I rarely do. Yes it can be done, but if the phrase is complex it take more time to rehearse a clean realtime execution than to simply record the phrase and add the keyswitches manually. Besides, you still commonly need to go in and massage the expression controller data and edit the notes themselves. Ten seconds to play the phrase, ten minutes of editing to perfection. Keyswitches were really designed to save you from having to set up each articulation on a different MIDI channel. Keyswitches require one handed playing (not cool if you're forced to use mod wheel for expression) and are hardly intuitive. Plus you need to execute them prior to the new note.

Look at the East West Play engine. It's pretty basic. But the results that people get from it can be fabulous. Just listen to the demos. Still tons of hard work and editing in the sequencer. This stuff is really made to be played by the sequencer, not in realtime.

I like the VSL engine (Vienna Instruments Pro) which allows you to quickly set up articulations and how YOU want to control them. Plus they have REAL legato which on solo brass/winds is still unbeatable, IMO.

Sample Modeling is one of the best realtime engines but they are redone specifically for each instrument. And they pretty much require breath control but you can do things like vibrato completely controlled via breath control.

I don't see why KARMA can't be used to control articulations, round robins, etc. It's obviously a MIDI processor and it can control the HD-1 engine down to the OSC level. Hell it can do it's own version of wave-sequencing. There are some examples of it, e.g. up/down strumming of guitar, but I don't think that has been SK's focus. I'm just saying I don't see a reason why KARMA couldn't be used more in this fashion.

As far as the Kronos is concerned, the HD-1 engine is very receptive to being controlled via breath controller (or any other external controller) and you can easily program it so that any number of things can be controlled via BC, with smoothing. And importantly, you can shut off key driven velocity control of amplitude and expression. As we've been sidetracked on to the JP80, this is one of the things I don't get about it. I don't see that I can shut off velocity control of amp/expression and use an external controller instead. Triggering velocity from a keyboard makes no sense when dealing with brass/winds/strings. Volume/expression is controlled over the phrase, not the note. You need continuos control of volume and expression. The mod wheel on the JP80 does provide expression, but for some reason resets with each new note. This as this makes no sense to me.

The Kronos does have a very nice implementation of legato when used in mono mode called legato offset.

I firmly believe there is nothing better than HIGH QUALITY samples for recreating acoustic instruments, solo and ensemble. There is a 100% accuracy of the tone that I find lacking in modeled instruments. There are MANY excellent examples out there of virtual orchestral pieces and 99% of them were painstakingly put together in a DAW using individual sampled articulations.

What matters to me is quality. If these new string libraries (Korg/Karo) are excellent and have the full compliment of articulations, it ends there with me. All the rest is a sideshow.

Busch.

[Bruce Lychee]

you should check out posts by BurningBush. He used a mouth/wind controller with the Kronos for trumpet sounds and other instruments with an excellent result.

This shows there is more than 1 way to get at articulation. Wind instruments are difficult to emulate.

I hope to get at JP 80 soon to understand what they have done with their SN modeling.

I have listened to his recordings and they are very nice, but not only is the controller virtually impossible to get anywhere, using an external device like a breath controller isn't really any different than using a digital wind instrument. Having articulations activated solely by keyboard actions is different. I also think the articulations on many of the SN instruments are equally impressive without relying on a mouthpiece.

[Bruce Lychee]

Using keyswitches isn't great for live playing. It is extremely useful for recording however and would make complete sense on a workstation like the Kronos. At the very least more articulations should be available.

As for the Jupiter, I don't think people really understand how different the articulations are from programs like EastWest or Kontakt. They function very differently and SN articulations are much more suited to playing.

[philmagnotta]

Most Kronos sounds are already excellent, plus they can easily be edited to your liking.

To get welcome additional options can't and should not reverse this logic.

There are territories where the Kronos sounds are weaker, that is the orchestral strings.
Imo, EXs 11 Legendary Strings should be not a be a chargeable option.

I totally agree, none of the hardware manufacturer's strings are above average.
Why so much emphasis on Pianos? Well good pianos, like strings, have been complained about for ever, so Korg improved this issue, but on a game-changing workstation, where all the demo/video/reviews I have seen/read, focus too much on piano, elec. piano, organ.
The Kronos is not supposed to be a stage piano with its normal variants, it is marketed as a workstation with a somewhat lack-luster sequencer, which should be a major factor in workstations.
I hope and have asked if Korg can at least bring M3 seq. functionality or more to Kronos.
Korg knows this, regarding strings, and a high quality sting library is much more labor intensive to produce than just about any other acoustic instrument and the necessary ensemble requirements.
Since Korg, most people here and I know this, the reason I commented on this matter is to see if Dan or Jerry or anyone else from Korg would reply.
Since I have only demo'd Kronos at GC, I can say that at least they are on the right track regarding future instruments.
Over-all, a good instrument and I will buy a Kronos!

[NuSkoolTone]

Improved Strings and possibly a Bosie piano sound great! THough count me in as a +1 on the price. I mean one could easily blow a grand on these libraries and that 1/3 the cost of the Kronos. If they could get it RIGHT, I would TOTALLY pay that price for a well done POP/MOTOWN horn section. I want stuff with BALLS, Growl, Snarl and Spit!

At that price I AM expecting these to be fully streaming libraries.

Biggest thing I could hope for is USER steaming capability in the next OS update. Though I'm impressed with the improvements already done. Nice work Korg!

[Slovenec]

$249 for an extra sample library..... sorry but I'll pass. I have no objection to paying for new sounds and sample libraries but $249 can buy you a much larger sample library if running a computer based DAW and you look at something like Scarbee or East West. Native Instruments have the right idea charging $99-$119US for a sample library like their 'bass guitar' series and $169 for larger libraries like Heavyocity etc etc.

I can see that $249 price coming down sooner rather than later because as other shave mentioned, owners have already spent a big amount on buying the Kronos in the 1st place.

There's no doubt that hundreds of hours have gone into the production of these extra sounds/xamples. However, that's just the way it is and other companies charging less for their library titles can also argue that they spent hundreds of hours on their products.

I think is ludicrous that some users would expect these extra sound banks for free (as has been mentioned elswhere). However, we also shouldn't have to pay through the roof for extra libraries in this day and age. Remember that the 90's with all those overpriced Roland/Korg/Yamaha PCM cards and boards are now thankfully way behind us.

As for me, I'll gladly spend extra on a good Exi guitar & bass sample library that provides 'round robin' type features for different instrument articulations. A good pop/big band brass/sax library would also be welcome not to mentione something dedicated to great choir sounds and something else that could put a hardware Spectrasonics Omnisphere into the Kronos (yep I'd actually pay $249 for that last suggestions!):)

[runningman67]

Hi

How do you put 1.5 on your board. Do you think mine will be updated already? It should be with me this month, fingers crossed.

Thanks

[StephenKay]

Hi

How do you put 1.5 on your board. Do you think mine will be updated already? It should be with me this month, fingers crossed.

Thanks

1. You put the update on a USB stick,and there is a command to update the system software in global mode.
2. No, yours won't have the new OS, because for you to have it this month, means it was manufactured prior to that, and the new OS is not even released yet.

[runningman67]

Thank you Stephen. Another good reason to buy this keyboard.

[burningbusch]

Using keyswitches isn't great for live playing. It is extremely useful for recording however and would make complete sense on a workstation like the Kronos. At the very least more articulations should be available.

As for the Jupiter, I don't think people really understand how different the articulations are from programs like EastWest or Kontakt. They function very differently and SN articulations are much more suited to playing.

For recording, keyswitches are completely unnecessary as you can use Program Change to instantly get any program within the Kronos. All are available at any time. This is very different from software-based samplers. You plop a PC into the sequence just as you would a keyswitch note.

We don't have any details about the Korg Legendary Strings library but if it's a semi-serious attempt it should have either sections or numerous articulations or possibly both.

I think I have a pretty good handle on how the JP80 works. I do see (and have only found in my demoing) only a "Strings" for ensemble strings listed with sustain, staccato, pizz and tremolo articulations. That's pretty basic stuff, the kind of thing you'd expect from really any ROMpler. I'm hoping the Karo/Korg string libraries are several notches up from this.

You know the articulations you find in pro string libraries (marcato, spiccato, con sordino, détaché, crescendos & diminuendos, fortepiano, sforzato, legato, portato, staccato...) are included because they are in the scores. Working with these articulations can be a PITA, but it makes all the difference in the world when they are properly applied in the music.

Busch.

[Bruce Lychee]

Keyswitches are absolutely useful for recording if you prefer laying things down in real time. Final production is another thing, but when it comes to putting ideas together and exchanging them with the people you work with, it is a quick way to put together ideas with sounds that don't sound static. Also why access Program Change if you can make keyswitches available? It is certainly more direct.

The articulations you are naming on the Jupiter make it clear that you don't understand the scope of the Jupiter articulations. Those are just alternate articulated sounds that you can pick like most keyboards that are romplers or samplers. The Jupiter is neither and there are more subtle articulations going on that capture behavioral aspects of the various instruments.

I have Hollywood Strings Diamond and Kontakt 5 and certainly understand their utility and the level of realism achievable through editing. I also have the Jupiter and know how differently it works. I'm not sure if those differences are rooted in the fact that it uses physical and behavioral modeling, but I do know that it is effective. I would be very satisfied if the Kronos incorporated EastWest type articulations via keyswitch because it would be extremely useful on a workstation. I know it can't do what the Jupiter is doing because in most cases it is relying solely on samples.

[aron]

> I also think the articulations on many of the SN instruments are equally impressive without relying on a mouthpiece.

What you can do on the Jupiter is use the D-beam, but it is not a substitute for something like breath control. It works well for a swell etc...

Although something like the VL-1 may not be "waveform" correct, I can tell you that many people think that it sounds realistic. I know because I have used it for many years since practically day one.

To my ears the Jupiter sounds fine - certainly better than many other things out there, but despite one person saying the violin sounds like a 10K violin, I did not find it incredibly amazing. Much in the same way that I didn't find the synthesizer section amazing. I'm serious that my JP-8000 is so much more than the Jupiter's VA in terms of motion control, RPS and ribbon control. Simply an amazing keyboard with poor construction - but it is 15 years old.

Then again, I don't really care about using a violin sound live or oboe or clarinet -- wait, I do use bass clarinet on the VL1 so I take it back!

To me there are plenty of other cool reason to use the Jupiter besides the "acoustic" emulations. Honestly since Roland has put so much effort into mimicking acoustic instruments, it must be that the tide is changing for live use.