M3 or Motif XS ?

[vEddY]

Veddy wrote:
"Now, let me be a journalist for a second, while trying to be as objective as I can be. They're bigger, they have more money, but they're BEHIND."

Hey bkboy,
I'm so sorry but you didn't understand what I wanted to say - or maybe I didn't explain it very well. Either way, sorry. I thought it was clear when I wrote this "And that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like Yamaha, or Kurzweil, or Roland to offer a product that could compete with the OASYS, because I surely would."
So, when I said "behind" I was referring to the overall situation on the Ws market, with specific reference to KORG and Yamaha. Yamaha just doesn't have any answer to the OASYS technology. That's what I ment. And it's been two years. And I'd like a situation where Yamaha HAS answer to that so we can have some serious and healthy competition. Is that ok?

[bkboy]

Thanks Mr Veddy for your reply.

I personally never cared much for Oasys because of its price-tag. Sure it has some of the best technologies in 1 unit, however, its out of range for me and many of my friends. That's why I never wanted Yamaha to release something like that with a $8000 pricetag, eg a Yamaha machine that incorporates, FS1R (8 operator FM), VL1, An1x, AWM2, FDSP (from their EX5), VCM all into one unit.

I'd rather have something like the M3 or the XS that is more affordable.

I do appreciate your reviews as you provide some real valuable insight that specs sometimes do forget (and not for just keyboards, also for other gadgets)....

Take care!

[vEddY]

Sorry it wasn't my intention to make any stir.

Nah, I just wanted to point out that it's normal and good that people have different opinions and that should be no reason not to talk and/or discuss things. It's when we have a constructive discussion when good things happen, I hope that's ok

I had no one in my mind. There is always some personal bias and naturally it sometimes can get a bit rough. Companies have to be proactive about their products as well. It's just my small observation.

Absolutely. But I'd like to think that at I'm at least trying to be as objective as possible. And this is no comparsion with anyone else, I'm just talking about my work ethics.

It's why I'm considering M3-m because it'd be something new to me. How it'd be useful for me I could only tell after some time using it. I will not deny Karma superiority but it doesn't make something like XS' arp useless. And we know your example is just a thought experiment because synth companies are too smart to not differentiate theirs offerings.
Having ES rack XS would be a similar thing. Not I'd not like have one but I like variety. However there is an one thing for what I'd get XS - if it only had QY700 like sequencer.

It's not "useless" that's the correct term, that would be too harsh.. Is the term "more limited" ok? But when I come to think about it, I really think that the difference between regular arp and KARMA is pretty well pictured in my article

Wonder why?
When a company has an established product line it will not be willing to change everything. It's clear Yamaha is preferring to stay with Motif paradigm and just augment it by every generation. So they can keep similar price levels for next versions. ES has a basically the same interface as first Motif but get much better specs. XS has better interface, better sampling, better connectivity but both effects instances and polyphony had to stay the same.
Some were critical about it. But if it'd get improvements in everything and in a results cost more then people would be complaining too...
Imho XS' specs weren't dictated by Yamaha supposed technical inability but a pure marketing calculation. They focused on some other goals.
The same goes for every product I suppose.

Nah, I don't wonder I'm just one of people here, as far as the raw drive is concerned - like anyone else, I just want better product with more and more reasonable prices.
Anyway, I think you're probably on par with this comment about the "calculation" thing. Every company does this kind of tradeoff, always trying to balance the ratio between development costs, marketing costs and ideas, final price and price of the product "out of the factory". Of course, while constantly trying to maximise margins/profits. But some companies are much more "slaves" to this phylosophy then others.
I have zero problems with Yamaha's continuity as far as the Motif "brand" is concerned. I'd just like to see some kind of Motif Xtreme that could compete with OASYS, that's all. I hope that's ok

[Gammaray]

Anyway, I think you're probably on par with this comment about the "calculation" thing. Every company does this kind of tradeoff, always trying to balance the ratio between development costs, marketing costs and ideas, final price and price of the product "out of the factory". Of course, while constantly trying to maximise margins/profits. But some companies are much more "slaves" to this phylosophy then others.
I have zero problems with Yamaha's continuity as far as the Motif "brand" is concerned. I'd just like to see some kind of Motif Xtreme that could compete with OASYS, that's all. I hope that's ok

I'm starting to think the hardware workstation will be starting to look more like their software counterparts - there will be more focus on sampling than anything else. Even ROM memory is getting cheaper and 355Mb of pcm rom like in XS would be unthinkable some time ago.
(assuming it's still a real ROM and not some kind of eeprom)

It looks good on a paper for sure and there is this coined in software samplers phrase "it has xxGb of sounds!". So next iteration of Motif might have over 700Mb of "sounds".
Sample playback plus filters is probably least intensive method of sound generating. It's also flexible as can recreate most of timbres very well. So it's not a bad think unless of course sound designers and samplist would get sloppy (not uncommon thing in software "romplers").

But such approach has its limits. Some are already complaining why XS isn't sounding universally better than ES. Perhaps because ES' 175Mb of waveforms were good enough to get very good results already?

Even if we get "romplers with 1.4Gb of PCM rom" and they will not be able to sound any better than previous ones with 700Mb (at least to common ears) then so what?
In the end if something sells then it sells.

[vEddY]

Thanks Mr Veddy for your reply.
I personally never cared much for Oasys because of its price-tag. Sure it has some of the best technologies in 1 unit, however, its out of range for me and many of my friends. That's why I never wanted Yamaha to release something like that with a $8000 pricetag, eg a Yamaha machine that incorporates, FS1R (8 operator FM), VL1, An1x, AWM2, FDSP (from their EX5), VCM all into one unit. I'd rather have something like the M3 or the XS that is more affordable.
I do appreciate your reviews as you provide some real valuable insight that specs sometimes do forget (and not for just keyboards, also for other gadgets)....

Thanks, man, much appericiated. And what you're saying is absolutely fine with me, actually, because I think everyone should do and/or have whatever they want. If you don't care about the OASYS, that's absolutely fine with me - just as it's probably allright with you if I do:)
The comment I made about wanting Yamaha and others to show something like that was based purely on the fact that I'd like for other companies besides KORG to care about that extreme-high-end market. Because there are always users that will appericiate that, nothing else.

[vEddY]

I'm starting to think the hardware workstation will be starting to look more like their software counterparts - there will be more focus on sampling than anything else. Even ROM memory is getting cheaper and 355Mb of pcm rom like in XS would be unthinkable some time ago.
(assuming it's still a real ROM and not some kind of eeprom)
It looks good on a paper for sure and there is this coined in software samplers phrase "it has xxGb of sounds!". So next iteration of Motif might have over 700Mb of "sounds".
But such approach has its limits. Some are already complaining why XS isn't sounding universally better than ES. Perhaps because ES' 175Mb of waveforms were good enough to get very good results already?
Even if we get "romplers with 1.4Gb of PCM rom" and they will not be able to sound any better than previous ones with 700Mb (at least to common ears) then so what?
In the end if something sells then it sells.

I completely and absolutely agree with you. There are a lot of examples of this, actually. Just take a look at piano and hammond samples that you can spend your money on. They mostly suck, and it doesn't matter how many GB's of samples they have if they suck.
As you can see, KORG actually focuses more and more on software - which is a good thing, I think. OASYS was a "push" in that direction in a way, I'd say. Market trends dictate that you should do software, at least for the future if not for now. I'm not so sure that everything will eventually become VST, but many things are going in that direction and software is more important every day.

[Gammaray]

As you can see, KORG actually focuses more and more on software - which is a good thing, I think. OASYS was a "push" in that direction in a way, I'd say. Market trends dictate that you should do software, at least for the future if not for now. I'm not so sure that everything will eventually become VST, but many things are going in that direction and software is more important every day.

If to go really technical there was never such distinction - software or hardware.
Even specialized ASICs are just programs in HDL type language and results of their compilation is a silicon chip itself.
The difference is in flexibility of platform such of PC but it has disadvantages as well. A common PC must deal with operating system (windows is kind of bloated), extra software layers like drivers and many services running in a background. A dedicated chip will also run far more efficiently consuming a tiny amount of power.

Oasys is running a very customized Linux. It's one of reasons why it can perform so much better than a similar software on a common PC.

Personally I'd love to see a new connection standard to be accept by major synths manufacturers. Something like MIDI specification but able to stream multiple audio streams, raw data and of course midi type messages. It'd make everything far more convenient...

"Pure" hardware synths will stay imho. Just for live playing alone and people who only want to play keys.

[Daz]

Some quite interesting info re: the XS -> http://charlie.keyfax.com/node/46

[GregC]

the XS is definitely growing on me and appears to be a very good upgrade from the ES. Especially due to Bert's energetic demos
and other well written reviews on the XS from NAMM visitors

[sewa]

The Motifs are all solid synthesisers, with great features/sounds and a professionaly looking (and feeling) hardware. Looking at my ES I know I made a good investment for years to come.

The XS seems to be another solid instrument, and even though I do not intend to upgrade, I would definitely recommend it to people looking for a main keyboard + sequencer. If you hate software sequencers (like myself) - this is the board to get.

Talking about Bert's demo - yes it was impressive, like any of his previous Classic/ES demonstrations...

[BasariStudios]

Oh... the Korg looks so much better and has Radias Synth, while the XS dropped the PLG's

Yes, cuz the PLG-VL is already BUILT IN.
And we dont buy synths for looks, M3 cant get closer to ES yes, not XS,
even though i use EXTREME.

[miket156]

Quote by Sewa:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Motifs are all solid synthesizers, with great features/sounds and a professionaly looking (and feeling) hardware. Looking at my ES I know I made a good investment for years to come.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No doubt the ES will sound good for years too come. But how long will Yamaha support the earlier Motifs? How long will Yamaha continue to produce the "old technology" PLG boards for them? I'm somewhat concerned that Yamaha keeps bringing out a totally new model every 3 years. I realize that "time marches on", but Korg seems to keep their models in production longer, some with upgrade capability. We'll see how it shakes out.

Mike T.

[sewa]

Quote by Sewa:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Motifs are all solid synthesizers, with great features/sounds and a professionaly looking (and feeling) hardware. Looking at my ES I know I made a good investment for years to come.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No doubt the ES will sound good for years too come. But how long will Yamaha support the earlier Motifs? How long will Yamaha continue to produce the "old technology" PLG boards for them? I'm somewhat concerned that Yamaha keeps bringing out a totally new model every 3 years. I realize that "time marches on", but Korg seems to keep their models in production longer, some with upgrade capability. We'll see how it shakes out.

Mike T.

You know, the moment the keyboards we bought are overshadowed by a new "flagship" and remain forgotten by the crowd cheering the latest "innovation" is inevitable. So, the sooner we have this moment behind us - the better . Now we can focus on music with our outdated gear and we won't have to fear another "flagship" since we're behind anyway

I really hope that Korg M3 will be my last purchase for many years...then I will focus on getting the best out of my ES, Virus, Waldorf and Korg happily ignoring subsequent NAMM announcements....

Whether I'll manage to do that is another thing lol!

cheers

sewa

[Khazul]

Quote by Sewa:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Motifs are all solid synthesizers, with great features/sounds and a professionaly looking (and feeling) hardware. Looking at my ES I know I made a good investment for years to come.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No doubt the ES will sound good for years too come. But how long will Yamaha support the earlier Motifs? How long will Yamaha continue to produce the "old technology" PLG boards for them? I'm somewhat concerned that Yamaha keeps bringing out a totally new model every 3 years. I realize that "time marches on", but Korg seems to keep their models in production longer, some with upgrade capability. We'll see how it shakes out.

Mike T.

My ES Rack is one of the chosen ebay victims to fund the M3 if it turns out to be any good - along with an Alesis Fusion 8HD

[Daz]

Oh... the Korg looks so much better and has Radias Synth, while the XS dropped the PLG's

Yes, cuz the PLG-VL is already BUILT IN.

Built into the X3 ? I don't remember reading that, I thought in sample driven stuff.

Daz.