Lets discuss Kronos BUILD QUALITY:

Discussion relating to the Korg Kronos Workstation.

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Post by StephenKay »

Chriskk wrote:
But when I see people say ridiculous things about the software aspects of projects, such as "the software cost nothing, they already had it, they should have bought better knobs/fader end caps" , I feel I have to speak out.
No one said that the Kronos software cost nothing.
Actually, several people made nearly precisely that point. "The OASYS with a few minor updates" - yeah, those updates took 3-4 years of engineering development, required re-engineering of every aspect of the software, as I tried to point out, but nobody wants to get that.
Which costs more, developing a synth's software from scratch or from something you already got? Korg reused a bulk of the OASYS OS on the Kronos. Don't you think that it enabled Korg to save money?
No. It enabled Korg to release a synth like the Kronos at the price point they are offering it, now instead of in 4 more years. If they sold it for the same price as the OASYS, then they would be "saving money". What Korg is doing is passing on the "savings" to the consumer.
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Post by RonF »

mjames4208 wrote:my, my, my.
i hope the internet doesn't kill the KRONOS like it did the MPC5000!
intentionally or not.... s**t does spread like wild fires.
Exactly! It's in none of our best interests, as Kronos users, to have mis-information spread around. You want OS updates? New engines and sounds? Further development of the platform? Then you want to see strong sales and strong public support for the Kronos. It has the potential to realize many of the updates and enhancements that the Oasys never realized....simply due to increased sales and interest at its lower price point. But a bunch of negative mis-information has the potential to deter from that reality. Not to say that anyone who had a genuine wheel issue shouldn't speak of it and have frustration about it. But keep it in the proper perspective.....please.
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Post by MartinHines »

jahrome wrote: Most customers and potential customers don't really care about the hard work and effort that goes into making these products. They will always have opinions. And as long as they are the ones keeping these companies in business...their opinion does matter. Company heads can choose to listen or not. Consumers can choose to spend their money or not.
While opinions do matter, they should be based on reasonable knowledge.
Therefore, opinion statements like "Korg should have used more quality hardware components since they didn't have to spend any money on software development" are not valid opinions.
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Post by sparkie »

StephenKay wrote:
EXer wrote:
irtehyar wrote:For those stating that "It's ok for it to be cheap because it's a powerful oasys in a cheap box", well, the reason you're getting an "oasys" for this price is because computer power and touchscreen technology are cheap these days.
...and because Korg didn't have to invest in software design and developement for the Kronos, since the investment had already been done for the Oasys; they didn't even update the sequencer.
Against my better judgement, I must respond to this statement. (Dan and Rich are smarter than myself in this regard; hence they never comment on this kind of stuff). ;)

With all due respect, this kind of attitude and point is clueless. Nothing personal to the people who said them. ;)

Let's take one new feature in point: SST (Smooth Sound Transition): the ability to change programs or combis and have sustaining notes hold over, complete with the effects of the previous programs. Everyone would, I guess, admit that this is a powerful and useful feature, that people have been asking for forever. And it works really well on the Kronos.

This single feature, which may seem just one item on a bullet-point list to most, touches every single aspect of the software, every single sound engine, every single technology in the keyboard, such that major changes and revisions and testing and bug-fixing (i.e engineering resources and $$$) were required to be spent on everything that already existed. It was not just a case of taking existing OASYS software and plugging it into new hardware. The addition of a *single* feature like this required significant re-engineering of everything in the keyboard.

Let's take, just for a moment, KARMA - my thing. KARMA in the Kronos is the same (feature-set-wise) as the M3 and the OASYS. But I still had to work for over a year and a half implementing changes to the source code and engine such that it worked correctly with SST (not to mention other architectural changes).

Another would be adding the Drum Track feature of the M3, to the OASYS, in the Kronos. Again, a bullet point to you - to the engineering teams, many, many months of redesigning and reworking the software. This costs money, and time. Let's not even talk about the Set List feature.

And these are only several examples. It seems people have no idea what goes on with keyboard software development, other than people who actually design workstation keyboard software. (Those of you involved with other kinds of software, other kinds of computerized devices, please recuse yourselves. You have no opinion here, until you've gone swimming in this pond.)

One could say that the OASYS represented about 10-15 years of software development for Korg (if you look at the failed original OASYS and all of the time spent on that leading up to the released OASYS). The Kronos represents maybe an additional 3-4 years of software development. But it's not nothing. That's the time a company might normally spend on an entirely new product. You've gotten a bargain.

This response does not address build-quality issues, nor do I intend to. Not my job. But when I see people say ridiculous things about the software aspects of projects, such as "the software cost nothing, they already had it, they should have bought better knobs/fader end caps" , I feel I have to speak out.

For me, RAM is one of the most important features of any keyboard. SST is a nice feature .... but I would have rather had a $25 additional Ram board installed ..or the option to do so.. in the empty slot on the motherboard that is already there. Instead we have to fight loading and unloading samples and then figure out what combis are affected. How are we supposed to edit, create and save new material? Isnt this a "Workstation"? There isnt even enough room to install Sharps Assault or anyone elses library w/o first unloading whats already there.?? What kind of development is that?? Strange how Korg could overlook such an important feature?? Maybe they want us to just plug it in and play it I guess>... Also the ability to change screen icon/font resolution ,, or zoom would have been better than having SST. The board isnt even a month old and its already got issues with software and hardware already? And for some, what I mentioned may not even be an issue...and thats great... Just Sayin'..........
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Post by jahrome »

MartinHines wrote:
jahrome wrote: Most customers and potential customers don't really care about the hard work and effort that goes into making these products. They will always have opinions. And as long as they are the ones keeping these companies in business...their opinion does matter. Company heads can choose to listen or not. Consumers can choose to spend their money or not.
While opinions do matter, they should be based on reasonable knowledge.
Therefore, opinion statements like "Korg should have used more quality hardware components since they didn't have to spend any money on software development" are not valid opinions.
You are probably right. But there is nothing anyone can really do about opinions. They are like butt holes.....everybody has one, especially when it comes to these forums. The only thing you can do is ignore them or spend time educating them.

My opinion is tht ALL companies should use better hardware components. I am aware that they would cost a little more. I would pay for quality. I spent several thousand dollars for these keyboards. Adding an additional $50-$100 would be nothing.
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Post by jahrome »

StephenKay wrote:...Given that this wheel is the same as some on other Korg products (so I've been told), then it may very well be that there is the same tape on those products as well - just perhaps a tighter fit between the flange on the wheel and the ring on the circuit board.

I'm not defending the situation, and I'm sorry some people have this issue. I'm merely pointing out some analysis of the situation. It's not some HUGE manufacturing defect - it's a slightly out of tolerance run of plastic parts. My guess is that Korg is supplying new knobs that have a better tolerance such that they fit into the ring tighter. That's all that is required.
Really? Which Korg products? Certainly not the X50 or M50. I don't think its a huge manufacturing defect. Its just a poor design. A data wheel that attaches to a shaft is certainly a better design. This is what manufacturers of similar products have been doing successful for many years.
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Post by StephenKay »

jahrome wrote:
StephenKay wrote:...Given that this wheel is the same as some on other Korg products (so I've been told), then it may very well be that there is the same tape on those products as well - just perhaps a tighter fit between the flange on the wheel and the ring on the circuit board.

I'm not defending the situation, and I'm sorry some people have this issue. I'm merely pointing out some analysis of the situation. It's not some HUGE manufacturing defect - it's a slightly out of tolerance run of plastic parts. My guess is that Korg is supplying new knobs that have a better tolerance such that they fit into the ring tighter. That's all that is required.
Really? Which Korg products? Certainly not the X50 or M50. I don't think its a huge manufacturing defect. Its just a poor design. A data wheel that attaches to a shaft is certainly a better design. This is what manufacturers of similar products have been doing successful for many years.
I think someone named a few of the smaller Korg products. I don't know for sure. Actually, in examining it after taking the knob off, I do not see how it's particularly poor design, if the plastic parts fit tightly. Plugging a knob with a large flange into a large rotating ring should actually be a better design that a thin shaft, which concentrates more torque onto a smaller area. But I'm not a structural engineer of this sort, so I could be wrong.

And as for it being poor design, again I offer the idea that it's just a manufacturing glitch with the tolerance of the two pieces that are supposed to fit together. If they fit slightly more tightly, this would not have happened to you, and you wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it.
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Post by jahrome »

StephenKay wrote:
jahrome wrote:
StephenKay wrote:...Given that this wheel is the same as some on other Korg products (so I've been told), then it may very well be that there is the same tape on those products as well - just perhaps a tighter fit between the flange on the wheel and the ring on the circuit board.

I'm not defending the situation, and I'm sorry some people have this issue. I'm merely pointing out some analysis of the situation. It's not some HUGE manufacturing defect - it's a slightly out of tolerance run of plastic parts. My guess is that Korg is supplying new knobs that have a better tolerance such that they fit into the ring tighter. That's all that is required.
Really? Which Korg products? Certainly not the X50 or M50. I don't think its a huge manufacturing defect. Its just a poor design. A data wheel that attaches to a shaft is certainly a better design. This is what manufacturers of similar products have been doing successful for many years.
I think someone named a few of the smaller Korg products. I don't know for sure. Actually, in examining it after taking the knob off, I do not see how it's particularly poor design, if the plastic parts fit tightly. Plugging a knob with a large flange into a large rotating ring should actually be a better design that a thin shaft, which concentrates more torque onto a smaller area. But I'm not a structural engineer of this sort, so I could be wrong.

And as for it being poor design, again I offer the idea that it's just a manufacturing glitch with the tolerance of the two pieces that are supposed to fit together. If they fit slightly more tightly, this would not have happened to you, and you wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it.
I wouldn't be making a big deal out of it if I didn't spend $6000. I also wouldn't be making a big deal out of it if Korg used the same design as their previous highend workstations.

You imply that Kronos design is better than that of a "thin shaft." Who is talking about a "thin shaft"? Korg could design a "thick shaft" for all I care. It just needs to be solid. Besides, Kronos' knobs and sliders fit tightly against "thin shafts" underneath them. No problems in this area.

And why use parts of cheaper Korg products? If Korg used M3 parts, we probably wouldn't be talking about this back n forth.
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Post by StephenKay »

jahrome wrote:I wouldn't be making a big deal out of it if I didn't spend $6000. I also wouldn't be making a big deal out of it if Korg used the same design as their previous highend workstations.

You imply that Kronos design is better than that of a "thin shaft." Who is talking about a "thin shaft"? Korg could design a "thick shaft" for all I care. It just needs to be solid. Besides, Kronos' knobs and sliders fit tightly against "thin shafts" underneath them. No problems in this area.

And why use parts of cheaper Korg products? If Korg used M3 parts, we probably wouldn't be talking about this back n forth.
It's really a useless discussion. Korg chose to use that design of data wheel, and in the first run apparently two parts didn't fit together as well as they could have. Problem has been addressed, solved, etc. You've already been informed (if I read here correctly) that you will receive new data wheels fixing the problem, so why go on and on about it? Unless you want to damage the Kronos, and the longevity of the keyboard. ???
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Post by jahrome »

StephenKay wrote:
jahrome wrote:I wouldn't be making a big deal out of it if I didn't spend $6000. I also wouldn't be making a big deal out of it if Korg used the same design as their previous highend workstations.

You imply that Kronos design is better than that of a "thin shaft." Who is talking about a "thin shaft"? Korg could design a "thick shaft" for all I care. It just needs to be solid. Besides, Kronos' knobs and sliders fit tightly against "thin shafts" underneath them. No problems in this area.

And why use parts of cheaper Korg products? If Korg used M3 parts, we probably wouldn't be talking about this back n forth.
It's really a useless discussion. Korg chose to use that design of data wheel, and in the first run apparently two parts didn't fit together as well as they could have. Problem has been addressed, solved, etc. You've already been informed (if I read here correctly) that you will receive new data wheels fixing the problem, so why go on and on about it? Unless you want to damage the Kronos, and the longevity of the keyboard. ???
Because of your comments and a few others....is the reason why I go on. Additionally, the problem hasn't been addressed or solved until I actually receive the parts. Sir, you probably received your Kronos for free (could be wrong..). But I paid good money. I am still a little pissed because it took several weeks for anyone to acknowledge my issue. Anway...I have clearly made it known...outside of the data wheel, I have no issues with Kronos. But this one problem is big for me..and frustrating everytime I use it. I guess I should just be frustrated privately huh?
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Post by StephenKay »

jahrome wrote:Because of your comments and a few others....is the reason why I go on. Additionally, the problem hasn't been addressed or solved until I actually receive the parts. Sir, you probably received your Kronos for free (could be wrong..). But I paid good money. I am still a little pissed because it took several weeks for anyone to acknowledge my issue. Anway...I have clearly made it known...outside of the data wheel, I have no issues with Kronos. But this one problem is big for me..and frustrating everytime I use it. I guess I should just be frustrated privately huh?
So I guess it's best if nobody involved with Korg (although I am not an official representative) responds to you about this? No attempts at any explanation or discussion? I guess we should just let you alone in your massive discontent, your preoccupation with this one data input device that has already been fixed?

See, the part that's a little bit peculiar to me (about all of this kind of Kronos bashing that is going on here) is this:

1. A keyboard company will support, for a longer time, products that do well in sales.

2. Products that do poorly in sales, will have a shorter life.

3. Why go on and on about something that has already been dealt with? This discourages other customers. See #1 and #2.
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Post by jahrome »

StephenKay wrote:
jahrome wrote:Because of your comments and a few others....is the reason why I go on. Additionally, the problem hasn't been addressed or solved until I actually receive the parts. Sir, you probably received your Kronos for free (could be wrong..). But I paid good money. I am still a little pissed because it took several weeks for anyone to acknowledge my issue. Anway...I have clearly made it known...outside of the data wheel, I have no issues with Kronos. But this one problem is big for me..and frustrating everytime I use it. I guess I should just be frustrated privately huh?
So I guess it's best if nobody involved with Korg (although I am not an official representative) responds to you about this? No attempts at any explanation or discussion? I guess we should just let you alone in your massive discontent, your preoccupation with this one data input device that has already been fixed?

See, the part that's a little bit peculiar to me (about all of this kind of Kronos bashing that is going on here) is this:

1. A keyboard company will support, for a longer time, products that do well in sales.

2. Products that do poorly in sales, will have a shorter life.

3. Why go on and on about something that has already been dealt with? This discourages other customers. See #1 and #2.
Like I said before...its you. Some of your comments are irritating. Nothing has been fixed. I use the "one data imput device" 2x more than every other data input device added together. Its seems like you just don't understand this.

Korg Japan did not respond at all. Korg USA took weeks to get back to me. Its not my job to sell Kronos. If I got it for free, perhaps I would be a salesman like you. If no one responded, I would have returned both keyboards and have $6K in my pocket.
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Post by StephenKay »

jahrome wrote:Like I said before...its you. Some of your comments are irritating. Nothing has been fixed. I use the "one data imput device" 2x more than every other data input device added together. Its seems like you just don't understand this.

Korg Japan did not respond at all. Korg USA took weeks to get back to me. Its not my job to sell Kronos. If I got it for free, perhaps I would be a salesman like you. If no one responded, I would have returned both keyboards and have $6K in my pocket.
OK, keep slagging the Kronos (for your one issue). That'll help turn it into a long-lived keyboard, with many updates.

I have to pay for my own Kronos, BTW. I get a discount, same as if you work for the GAP, you get jeans for a discount. But I pay for my own Kronos.

Anyway, that's not likely to appease you, you're intent on blood here for some reason, but why?

Would you like this keyboard to have many more years of updates, or not? Why the hostility?
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Post by dangerousdave »

Jahrome, I totaly understand why it's frustrating for you, and that you've had quite a wait for a fix. Part of the reason for that is that you had your Kronos before anyone else - don't take that as a criticism - it's not in any way intended as such. The reality is that as one of the first owners, you become de facto backup QC. That shouldn't be the case, but it almost always is.

Look on the bright side though - you have not one, but two of these beasts. There are a bunch of us on here who would gladly put up with a dodgy data wheel in the short term if it meant that we could get a Kronos earlier.
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Post by Rosen Sound »

man this guy is a cry baby.. stephen you are the man!
Ide like to point out, as someone who opens korgs on a daily basis, the thin, or thick shaft, was worse then this. Keep in mind when you apply pressure to it, thats how it eventually gets ruined and skips values and can eventually move on its own :)

Kronos's ring is much more reliable then that

search this forum for "Joh wheel replacement" youll see more complaints for earilier SHAFT DESIGN

keep your f*ck*ng crying to yourself.

it cant take an hour for korg, a HUGE company to contact you. They have assigned (unless its free will) TWO people to come on here and deal with all of your s**t. THEY have to answer to a higher position, and then they do, and etc, that can take months. especially when they have to diagnose and find a solution.
And why use parts of cheaper Korg products? If Korg used M3 parts, we probably wouldn't be talking about this back n forth.
The keybed, joystick, among manyother controllers and components, are the same as the M3

That is all.

getting my K tomorrow.. cant f*ck*ng wait! if the data wheel falls off.. i trust ill receive a free one in the mail soon after :)
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