Korg Forums

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:57 pm**

https://ask.audio/articles/behringer-k2 ... dy-to-ship

I'm actually really excited about this. Always wanted an ms20 but wasn't thrilled about the form factor. The accordion shape always threw me off...wanted a desktop module version but those are pretty rare...so now this!

Also wondering if Behringer will use Hz or V!

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:16 pm**

that is a good question..
it does have standard midi...
so it will work with all midi gear like a good sequencer !!
I would like to think it is the same as the old ms20...
but I would RTFM when it is out in pdf first before buying..
or call sweetwater at 1-800-222-4700 they have an in house Behringer guy.

my question is does it have rack ears!! or an option for them!!

stack maybe 8 or 12 of these and get the sounds live like what I did with sound on sound remix back in the day!!

we are on the edge of good music for sure!!

2020 will be a good year for sound!!

Posted: **Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:38 pm**

roblabs wrote:https://ask.audio/articles/behringer-k2 ... dy-to-ship

I'm actually really excited about this. Always wanted an ms20 but wasn't thrilled about the form factor. The accordion shape always threw me off...wanted a desktop module version but those are pretty rare...so now this!

Also wondering if Behringer will use Hz or V!

Surely Korg must be worried by the 'might' and relentlessness of Behringer. The price of this device will wipe out Korg's MS20 market. Similarly for the Odyssey, and I gather Korg ceased ARP2600 production because Behringer are releasing one.

We're in the middle of synth revolution, but the last time it meant the collapse of a plethora of synth companies - most especially the US ones - Moog, ARP, Sequential, Oberheim - becuase they couldn't compete with the "Big Three".

While Yamaha are out of the synth market and Roland have momentum on a multitude of fronts, Korg, through MS20, Odyssey and the 'logues' are direct competitors of Behringer - and won't win that competition.

Unless Korg move back toward the Workstation / Radias / Microkorg / Electribe / Kaoss end of things - they're toast. I'd fear for their future.

Roland have just shown how to tweak a Nord Stage and make a 21st century desirable worstation - Korg need to get back to what they invented...

Pronto!

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:34 am**

How is Yamaha out of the synth market? They have any number of synth available.

..Joe

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:16 pm**

Joe Gerardi wrote:How is Yamaha out of the synth market? They have any number of synth available.

..Joe

Let's put it this way:

From 1972 to 1998 they developed:
SY1, SY2, GX1, CS80, CS60, CS50, CS30, CS30L, CS15, CS10, CS5, CS70M, CS40M, CS20M, CS15M, CS01, CS01 II, SY20, CE20, CE25, CP10, CP25, CP30, CP35, CP60, CP70, CP80, SK10, SK15, SK20, SK30, SK50D, GS1, GS2, DX1, DX7, DX9, DX100, DX21, DX5, TX modules, RX Drum machines, DX7II, V50, S22, SY55, SY77, SY99, TG55, TG77, W5, W7, EX5, EX7, EX5R, QY sequencers, RM1x, RS6000, AN1x, CS1x, CS2x, VP1, VL1, VL7, VL70m, FS1R, AN200, DX200, BC and WX wind controllers - and I'm leaving many out.

From 1998 - 2019 they've developed:
CS6x, Motif Engine and put it in about a dozen models of "Motif", Montage and Reface (all reused technologies)

In the process they've completley stopped all development of :
Electric keyboards
Electronic Wind controllers
Analog synthesizer development
Digital synthesizer development such as FM, AFM, RCM, FDSP, VP, VL, VA

The end of the Apollo era didn't just mean not going back to the moon - it meant dispersing to the wind a generation of innovators.

Yamaha did the very same in 1998 subsequent to the failure of the EX5. What they are doing now is a very, VERY pale shadow of their former glory.

In short - they literally have no synthesizer expertise in house - they actually wouldn't know how to innovate / design a new synthesizer if they tried - it's why they have that rediculous web site asking the public for our views on synthesis - becuse thay have no leaders or innovators in synthesizer design in house - they've all be let go or retired.

The pathetic state of Yamaha "synthesizsers" was summed up - by Yamaha Head of Keyboards herself - when, during the launch of the Reface series 4 or 5 years ago, was asked live during that event what was she thought was Yamaha's most iconic keyboard ever. Her answer - and I kid you not: one of their DGX electronic pianos range. You know - those pathetic pianos with a synth action keybed. That was her most iconic Yamaha keyboard of all time. No more need be said. Yamaha synthesis died 21 years ago.

I own about 20 major Yamaha classic synthesizers - I am a massive "Yamaha" fan - but - these days, they mean absolutely nothing in the world of synthesis because they are not involved in the world of synthesis. Reface and Montage are rehashed, worse examples, of previous glorious techologies; and that's where' they're at.

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:44 pm**

If Behringer starts development of grooveboxes and master sequencers, I'll pay serious attention. Consider something the size of a K2 or a Neutron, with four MIDI outs and a master USB slot for MIDI, driving a studio full of madness.

I'd be a buyer, most probably.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:49 am**

Kevin Nolan wrote:In short - they literally have no synthesizer expertise in house - they actually wouldn't know how to innovate / design a new synthesizer if they tried - it's why they have that rediculous web site asking the public for our views on synthesis - becuse thay have no leaders or innovators in synthesizer design in house - they've all be let go or retired.

Yamaha has NEVER innovated anything. Their FM synths - which aren't FM, they're phase distortion, but no one seems to get that - were created by someone else, they just packaged them in a cheap, easy-to-use keyboard.

Same could be said for Korg. Their last innovative synth was the M1; since then, everything has been a derivation of that, unless you factor in copying old, tired analog synths. It's just more of the same, repackaged and with more features.

At the end of the day, this is a business. they have to consider development, marketing, shrinkage, warranty, shipping, et al; it's a small market: the cheap little stuff they can sell at places like Costco and Best Buy are going to be their bread and butter. The synths are a niche market at best, and always have been.

..Joe

Posted: **Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:22 pm**

Have to admit, despite not being a huge Behringer fan, that I was interested in the K2.

But then I watches a video comparing it to the original and the MS20 Mini.

Neither the MS20 mini or the K2 sound like an MS20!

the _only_ reason one would want an MS20 is for it's original, hard gritty sound. Despite the form factor and similar feature set, to me there's just no point whatsoever buying an K2 if it just doesn't sound like an MS20.

from what I can tell, the MS20Ex on my OASYS sound better than the K2 - because I recognized features of the original in that plugin, especially regarding the filter and filter resonance. By contrast the K2 is quite different.

Quite surprised just how wrong Behringer got this - the D does sound like a Minimoog, and the VC340 is identical to the VP330 (I have both) but this is just not an MS20, and I definitely will not be buying one - or an MS20 Mini for that matter (which was, to my ears, almost as disappointing).

Posted: **Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:33 pm**

Joe Gerardi wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:In short - they literally have no synthesizer expertise in house - they actually wouldn't know how to innovate / design a new synthesizer if they tried - it's why they have that ridiculous web site asking the public for our views on synthesis - because they have no leaders or innovators in synthesizer design in house - they've all be let go or retired.
Yamaha has NEVER innovated anything. Their FM synths - which aren't FM, they're phase distortion, but no one seems to get that - were created by someone else, they just packaged them in a cheap, easy-to-use keyboard.

..Joe

You really should do a little back ground reading - just do even the lightest reading behind each of the vast list of instruments I mentioned before.

It's hard to know where to begin. From the CS80 to the CP80, from FM to VL and RCM to FDSP, from Breath Control to Polyphonic Aftertouch, Yamaha went through a 25 year golden age of invention and innovation in their electronic keyboards division commencing in 1974.

Although they licensed FM and VL technology from the CCRMA in Stanford - they actually contributed financially to the development of those technologies in Stanford; but more importantly, it was Yamaha exclusively took both of those technologies out of the academic arena and spend a fortune on the VLSI technology to make them commercially available.

Further, their implementation from a user interface stand point also constituted enormous developments - with polyphonic aftertouch control of FM via the GS1, GS2 and DX1 and Breath control of the VL1, VL7 and other VL devices example of that.

Korg's equally innovative approach to Virtual Acoustic technology through MOSS reveals just how different the same underlying algorithms can sound when developed through different companies.

This forum has long since past the point of throw-away and meaningless commentary.

Posted: **Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:29 pm**

i had one fo the origional ms20 back in the day
they were a beast !!
like you mention the gritty...
they had a sound that was only rivaled by classic moog….
but a pain to get the same exact sound every time...
lol what we would to have done for a fast computer with pro tools
back in 1977!!

I spent lot of time with mine doing sound on sound to get stereo and the right sounds blends...
a bit over 6 months to get what I can do in 2 hours now!!

back then it just needed a larger key bed of at least 61 keys...
and the ability to stack units for layers like you can with the current offerings that have midi...

yea the texture was from all the crappy parts from the day...
lol all those aerospace and computer rejected parts went to good use!!
making music gear!!

now days the caps are super close tolerance and heat resistant..
simi conductors that do not over heat or are not so out of spec that they are almost class c!! (as bad as a tube) ..

that was the 1960's and early 1970's

most mfg's do not and will not go back to the old dirty un reliable parts...

BUT!!
with all the modern chip gear... they can put the "flavor" and "sound"
back in the gear with stacked algorithm to do all the stuff in a small chip that used to take up a 16x16 inch pcb!!

I am thrilled with the new tech!!
and now we can do presets!!
things that would not happen back in the day..

I just hope behringer does well on the Yamaha cs80...
and make a rack version as well so it can be stacked on sound!!

but now days I get track happy in the studio...
1000 tracks or 500 as left right... or more!!

the last project had 5000 tracks and used 5 computers all synced..
the cool thing these days
dvd and bluray data is there to back projects up!!
so no more sound on sound layers that the first few tracks are lost in the mix... and could not be punched up a bit in the final mix...
or punched out of the project!!

cool days indeed!!
I cannot wait to see what the next 10 years are in music!!

and yes and where is my behringer cs80?
lol!!
yea it would be fun for the fall 2019 projects that have started!!

Posted: **Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:22 am**

Joe Gerardi wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:In short - they literally have no synthesizer expertise in house - they actually wouldn't know how to innovate / design a new synthesizer if they tried - it's why they have that rediculous web site asking the public for our views on synthesis - becuse thay have no leaders or innovators in synthesizer design in house - they've all be let go or retired.
Yamaha has NEVER innovated anything. Their FM synths - which aren't FM, they're phase distortion, but no one seems to get that - were created by someone else, they just packaged them in a cheap, easy-to-use keyboard.

Same could be said for Korg. Their last innovative synth was the M1; since then, everything has been a derivation of that, unless you factor in copying old, tired analog synths. It's just more of the same, repackaged and with more features.

At the end of the day, this is a business. they have to consider development, marketing, shrinkage, warranty, shipping, et al; it's a small market: the cheap little stuff they can sell at places like Costco and Best Buy are going to be their bread and butter. The synths are a niche market at best, and always have been.

..Joe

What about the Wavestation?

Posted: **Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:06 am**

Joe Gerardi wrote:
Yamaha has NEVER innovated anything. Their FM synths - which aren't FM, they're phase distortion, but no one seems to get that - were created by someone else, they just packaged them in a cheap, easy-to-use keyboard.

I had four Yamaha digital pianos - and abandon that too.
They don't offer much in comparison

Got a Kawai MP7SE - and it eats even the last CLP-535 I had for breakfast. Offer extensive tuning abilities right there - and not having to use sysex like with Yamaha to do anything.

Same could be said for Korg. Their last innovative synth was the M1; since then, everything has been a derivation of that, unless you factor in copying old, tired analog synths. It's just more of the same, repackaged and with more features.

I think Korg offer a lot of innovation - and that is clever approach - to reach new generations.

Kingkorg was extensive in emulating part from a Korg series filters, the Prophet, Moog and Oberheim ones.

Wide variety of oscillator types, wavetables and whatnot.

Two layers with each 6 lanes of cross modulation. Clever parts with allowing microphone input as an oscillator. Effects section was also easy to implement for each layer.

Have Prologue-8 on the way now - and also offer some new stuff in Multi engine for oscillators - like fm type ones with envelopes and 6 parameters each - user oscillators to buy/share with others etc. Excellent effects, even though modulation sections is limited - it offers new territories to visit. Two layers to use as you please - clever copy feature(fetch) to sub layer with preview to listen your way what to combine. Sorting options of presets is really clever, I think - it was really wished for Kingkorg which was fixed number of locations for the category buttons, and did not take into account from anything than position in memory. So you had to patch sysex to change the amount of Bass or Lead or any category to actually get those patches there.

So I find Korg rather innovative and ambitious in what they do. Good amount of store locations as well. A general preview/compare before write is a mystery though - why not there. My CX-3 v2 had that - why not every synth?

Most synths borrow from subtractive analysis idea - so just about everything can be bashed on that.

Posted: **Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:11 pm**

I am intrigued by the offerings from Behringer...

I love how they are bringing good quality offerings at affordable prices. Not all of us can afford the boutique offerings that current brands offer, nor can we always afford the original releases that are now very sought-after classics. Behringer had problems in the past with quality and reliability, but it seems as though they have worked much, if not all, of that stuff out.

I am not sure I would want the K2. I am more interested in the DeepMind-12 and a few of the Model D units, personally.

I love Korg. I have A LOT of Korg in my studio (as well an Ensoniq). I am happy to be able to add the above-mentioned Behringer products in the near future.

As far as Yamaha's position in this thread, I am not sure that I really have anything good to say about them. If I get anything from Yamaha for my studio, it will be legacy gear. I am still very interested in the TX816 fully-loaded rack and they are still going for around $1000 USD. After the success of the DX series, I have always felt a bit of an elitist attitude from Yamaha.

I think that they've been in business longer than just about anyone else, musically (over 125 years). This surely gives them lots of credibility, but becoming somewhat elitist takes away some of that credibility.

I have had a lot of Yamaha in my studio/live rig in the past. I have had the DX7, TX81Z, FB-01, MM6, MM8, TG500, TX1P, TG33 (which I wish I still had), and many others.

My current studio/live seup consists of 5 Korg pieces, 5 Ensoniq pieces and other gear from a few other companies. Adding Behringer stuff, specifically the DeepMind-12 and the Model D units, will add a new dimension to my sound. I look forward to getting them in the next 3-6 months.

Yamaha has nothing currently available that I would be interested in. Behringer does. As does Korg (namely, another PA700 for my studio and as a backup for my other PA700 which is used daily).

While many companies are 'rehashing' their older technology, I do not think that this is a bad thing. Korg is doing this as well, with their expansion of their architecture of the M1. I do not see this as a bad thing. What they've done is made it better. They made it better by improving the sample quality and polyphony. This is not bad. If it is a tried and true system, then why design something else? Make what they have even better than before and you still have a winner, especially if you allow for backward compatibility.

Behringer may be copying older technology, but they are adding modern twists to them that makes their products attractive. I know that a lot of people like to talk down on Behringer products because of their past mistakes in quality, but the current lineup does not reflect their past. They have to get away from their past mistakes and I think that they've done that, if we give them a chance to prove it...

I am reminded of Ensoniq and my 'holy grail' keyboard in the VFX/VFX-SD. I have two of them (as well as others) and I know the reliability issues the VFX had (and still has if the modifications are not performed). I am STILL, after almost 30 years, getting new sounds and textures on my VFX that I had not thought possible before. It is a joy to play them and make sounds that fit what I do.

THAT is what having instruments should be about. If the K2 works for people, then they can buy it and play away

Grace,
Harry

Posted: **Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:18 pm**

Narioso wrote:
Joe Gerardi wrote:
Got a Kawai MP7SE - and it eats even the last CLP-535 I had for breakfast. Offer extensive tuning abilities right there - and not having to use sysex like with Yamaha to do anything.
I LOVE Kawai digital pianos. I have a Lowrey DP in my studio now and the action and sounds are great. Lowrey is owned by Kawai, and I was able to get it for a crazy-low price. It was an offer I could not refuse.

I love Kawai's sound. I love the woody tone of their pianos. I am looking at getting an MP7Se or the MP11SE next year. If I get the MP11SE, it will not leave my studio. If I get the MP7SE, it will be my live board, triggering my other live gear through MIDI.

Grace,
Harry

Korg Forums

Behringer K2

Behringer K2

that is a good question

Re: Behringer K2

i had one fo the origional ms20 back in the day