On year in with PA5X - buyer's remorse or room to improve?

[leland_iko_music]

Hey all,

First of all, please do not let us get into any kind of flame-wars -- what I have posted below is purely of my own opinion from my own experience trying out the various alternatives to the PA5X -- and I am still a proud owner of my PA5X-88 despite my various gripes about it... but here we go !



As much as I currently enjoy everything that the PA5X has given me over the past year, and is still giving me (and which I'm still finding new every day) - I cannot neglect my sense of "buyers remorse" at this stage.

Firstly, I will freely admit that I probably should have gone for a workstation rather than an arranger, even though the PA5X does a "fair" job at both (though doing sequencing and layers is a long-winded process of programming it). Added information - most of what I do is liveloop and improvisation, and although I sometimes use the arranger functions, they are more of a hiderance to a help in what I want to achieve.

Please also bear in mind that when I purchased the PA5X, there was nothing else available in its class (except maybe the Genos)...

My pet peaves (in no specific order of precedence, it's just a culmination of all of these that make me wish ... IF ONLY I HAD GONE FOR.... (insert your favourite keyboard here))


- Piano sounds: After hearing several demonstration videos, I felt that the "standard" piano sounds were very close to the mark, whether it be for Steinway, Bosendorfer, Yamaha, etc. .. and even with the added keybed and damper effect sounds ... but helas .. ALL of those video "reviews" had actually significantly modified the built-in sounds.

- MIDI time/tempo synchronisation: I use equipment that requires tempo sychronisation for some applications. I have yet to this day to find out how the PA5X can either send or receive the tempo setting to any other device. I have both an RC505 loopstation and the computer connected via MIDI and while they can all "see" each other, they cannot see tempo synch under any configuration.

- MIDI controller buttons available: The only available user-assignable MIDI control buttons are the 1,2,3 buttons above the pitch-bend/articulation joystick. The PA5X has a matrix of 16 pads each with 4 possible permutations. NONE of these are available to send MIDI control signals. (according to Qui). this seems to be a complete waste of resources given that with the matrix, on any given [standard] configuration, there are no more than 16 functions assigned ... so basicallhy 3/4 of the capabilities of the matrix is not even used.

- Stereo Sound Quality: while at first glance and watching review videos, the sound quality sounds awesome, in reality, this requires a considerable amount of modification. At best, all of the built in sounds (in terms of stereo field) only range from about 45 degrees left or right of centre.

- Aftertouch: I find that the velocity of the aftertouch effect is almost akin to ON/OFF -- even though when looking at it through a MIDI analyser it does show the graduation of the effect. Audibly, however, it's either on or off, despite the velocity settings in the setup menu.

- Guitar sounds: for the most part these are pretty good more or less... but a good punchy lead electric guitar with sustain and using X/Y on the joystick for articulation and harmonics --- BIG FAIL

- Price range : this is definitely going to provoke riots in the streets... but for 5K Euros, at the time, there was nothing much in the market to justify the price or the quality against the competition... that changed RAPIDLY... Yamaha came out with the Montage about 6 months after I had already placed the order for the PA5X ... with a MUCH SHORTER delibery delay (I waited nearly 10 months for the PA5X ).


- Keybed: while I love the weighted hammer action, after a few months, the keys have started rattling as if there are tiny marbles inside each key rolling around side to side with each keypress.

- Intonation: I have found that over time several instruments become "detuned" from the reference 440hz. Since I do live looping, this is VERY noticeable when I select an instrument sound and it is a few Hz out of tune with what what just recorded. It's not really a case of trasposition, since those work in semitones, but I'm talking about quarter, eighth, or even sixteenth tones out of whack ! ... For some instruments, such as a lead guitar or a lead synth, I can almost compensate by using the pitchbend joystick, but it's not pretty AT ALL, and indeed the use of the joystick actuall exacerbates the problem -- in orther words, after NOT using the joystick, the pitch discrepancy is even MORE..

Some insteuments sounds are an entire semitone or more out of key -- for example under synth pads, "Wave Obsession" is a few hz more than a semitone FLAT of the base key. (to the point that even transposing it a semitone up stil leaves it a few hz flat).

You can actually hear this detuning phenomenon on some of my Youtube videos which are VODs from my Twitch streams... it has become especially prevalent in the past couple of months.

I had previously posted a comment on this forum about this detuning issue, and despite a couple hundred views, zero replies or comments... which is in and of itself disconcerting.

- Interaction by Korg with its customers/users : pretty much ZERO -- as has been highlighted MANY times in this forum.



Final analysis :

- Value for Money as an arranger: well, if you like purely an arranger doing purely arranger things, then 8/10.

- Value for Money as a hybrid arranger/workstation: 4/10

- Quality and realism of sounds: 7/10 - -while many of the souds are quite realistic, there are some which do not even correspond to the category of sound that the've even been placed into. in terms of stereo depth/width ... the vast majority of the sounds are lacking in every single way and unable to fill that "void" between left and right without major modifications to the envelopes.

- Quality of build/construction: 10/10 -- this baby is SOLID .. and VERY HEAVY compared to even my Kawai ES8 digital piano which is weighted like a friggin' Bosendorfer concert grand... Metal surfaces with a hardwood SIDE panels .. this thing is definltely PROFESSIONAL.. and definitely NOT a plastic substitute.

- Visibility of Controls: In general, i would say 7/10: besides the huge touch-screeen, which I give 11/10 for, the various other control buttons are very well lit (ONLY IN ARRANGER MODE). What is missing is back-lighting for the other buttons (perhaps in a totally different colour to distinguish them from performance affecting functions).
The actual slider positions (master volume and control sliders - top left) are impssible to see in low lighting conditions.. the Roland Fantom series back-lights these sliders so you can see at a glance what is going on.

Sub-category on visibility of controls: The pitch-bend/articulation joystick has those lit-up arrows pointing north,south,east,west, but never really indicate anything of use. At the very least, in my opinion, they should change colour to indicate a representation of the bend/articulation being employed... but sitting idly by with the arrows alluminated when you're not even playing anything seems like a total waste. When actually playing something -- NOBODY really even looks at the joystick... so there is really no point in that being even remotely back-lit in ANY colour - let alone the white that it is currently.


What would I have purchaesd instead given the choices of TODAY ?

As simply an arranger?
- Definitely the PA5X as number one. The workflow on the Genos, for exmple, I find very confusing by comparison... (though this is simply my own opinion)

All other criteria:


- YAMAHA Montage M8X (hadn't been released when I purchasd the PA5X -- the polyphonic aftertouch, however, is AMAZING -- and seriously lacking on all of the Korg products to date)

- Korg Kronos 2 (discontinued, but the Nautilus hadn't yet been announced)

- Korg Nautilus (great kit, but no aftertouch - and hadn't yet been released)

- Korg Nautilus AT (even better kit -- see above -- but aftertouch still global and not polyphonic -- see yamaha above)

- Yamaha ANYTHING for Piano sounds -- the CFX concert grand sound is incorporated into almost all of Yamaha's mid and high range keyboards and it's a heavenly sound. The Steinway D concert grand is also one of my favourites, but is not reliably reproduced on any hardware keyboard to date -- only a very few VSTs for DAW or real-time [Mainstage for example] applications come close.

- Availability of nearly same audio and reaction qualtiy but for less cost: This is where I think Yamaha, and to a certain extent even Roland, takes the gold trophy.

There is nothing really comparable to the PA5X as an arranger or Nautilus as a pure workstation in the mid-range by the same manufacturer. (around the 1k to 2k region instead of 4k to 5k) --

However, several other manufacturers have taken the best features from the flagship platforms and made them available in their mid-range products to allow a new sector of consumers to benefit -- this is not to say that they are taking away from the benefits or sales of the flagship models -- far from it since they also have MANY features and advatages that justify the additional expense.

Examples of the mid-range platforms with ALMOST near full features as those from which they were derrived: Yamaha MODX (mid-ranged between the flagship Montage and the mid-range DX synths) , Roland Fantom 0x (scaled down plastic casing and smaller footpring version of the Fantom 5, 7,


I will of course very much welcome any feedback and comments, or even suggestions on further enhacing my experience with the PA5X ..

Lots of love to everyone


Leland




[/u]

[QuiRobinez]

I don't want to comment on all your observations, because it's just your opinion, but for a few of them I will explain some of the theory to help you further.

- Piano sounds: After hearing several demonstration videos, I felt that the "standard" piano sounds were very close to the mark, whether it be for Steinway, Bosendorfer, Yamaha, etc. .. and even with the added keybed and damper effect sounds ... but helas .. ALL of those video "reviews" had actually significantly modified the built-in sounds.

I doubt that this is true, my guess is that they all use the Audio Waves section where you can setup your own EQ and Master profiles for the overall sound. In all my videos I use this too, I've created several profiles for different purposes and one of those settings was explained in the 5 awesome features video on my youtube channel

- MIDI time/tempo synchronisation: I use equipment that requires tempo sychronisation for some applications. I have yet to this day to find out how the PA5X can either send or receive the tempo setting to any other device. I have both an RC505 loopstation and the computer connected via MIDI and while they can all "see" each other, they cannot see tempo synch under any configuration.

I have no problem with this on my pa5x, I use it all the time (in both ways, clock sends and receives depending on the application), it's just a matter of setting the clock settings correct in the settings midi section.
so:
- settings
- menu
- midi tile
- set on general controls the clock source channel if you want to receive midi clock signals (or activate the clock send checkbox if you want to send midi clock signals)
- press the midi in channel tab
- set channel 1 to Control
- set channel 2 to Global

Now you have setup your Pa5x for use in a daw or looper environment. You can save this as a user preset so that you can switch in an easy way

- Stereo Sound Quality: while at first glance and watching review videos, the sound quality sounds awesome, in reality, this requires a considerable amount of modification. At best, all of the built in sounds (in terms of stereo field) only range from about 45 degrees left or right of centre.

I would suggest that you read some of the theory behind it, search for phase correlation and panning theory about this. A short explanation is the following:
when you want to spread sounds in a stereo field then the 45 degrees is the point where you go out of phase in your sound. You can easily check this yourself with a polar sample stereo meter and phase correlation meter. It works as follows, if you go to the sound edit mode and load one oscillator in mono mode then you can pan that sound left or right to a maximum of 63 degrees. The pan value is the amount of degrees, check the phase correlation, at 0 pan you will see that you have perfect phase of 1. Now change the Pan of that mono source to -45, you will see in your polar sample meter that the sound is now panned to -45 degrees and that the phase is now 0 (which is still fine for masking purposes). Now increase the value to -63 it will go to -63 degrees left and you will see that the phase will be going between 0 and -1. Now this can be a problem when using lots of sounds, because now you have masking problems that you have to take care of in the EQ spectrum when you create your sound.

So bottom line, if you want to improve your sound in general (this does apply to every instrument) then it's quite convenient to have some theoretical knowledge about how this works and what you have to do to achieve your desired sound pallet. The above is a very simplified explanation of what is going on and the pa5x does this in a perfect way. Also keep in mind that most of the sounds have chorus or reverb applied to them, and this makes the stereo spread up till 90 percent.

- Intonation: I have found that over time several instruments become "detuned" from the reference 440hz. Since I do live looping, this is VERY noticeable when I select an instrument sound and it is a few Hz out of tune with what what just recorded. It's not really a case of trasposition, since those work in semitones, but I'm talking about quarter, eighth, or even sixteenth tones out of whack ! ... For some instruments, such as a lead guitar or a lead synth, I can almost compensate by using the pitchbend joystick, but it's not pretty AT ALL, and indeed the use of the joystick actuall exacerbates the problem -- in orther words, after NOT using the joystick, the pitch discrepancy is even MORE..

Some insteuments sounds are an entire semitone or more out of key -- for example under synth pads, "Wave Obsession" is a few hz more than a semitone FLAT of the base key. (to the point that even transposing it a semitone up stil leaves it a few hz flat).

These sounds were intentionally programmed by the sound designer that way, you can easily check it yourself, for instance the wave obsession sound, you will see that it starts with perfect pitch and then drift out of tune, when analysing the 8 oscillators you will see that it detunes up till 1200 based on an envelope because the sound designer wanted this effect. If you want to use this specific sound, then just modify that detuning and in the envelopes and velocity profiles on the pitch page of each oscillator. Basically you are modifying then the decisions of the sound designer of that specific sound and that is no problem at all.

That tune drifting is a common technique sound designers use on pad sounds, I use it too sometimes, just check some of my modwave sound videos and you will notice that I also do a lot with pitch drifting techniques in sounds on synths.

And that's the thing with the korg pa5x, you get a default arranger full of sound designer decisions and a 'safe' way of letting sounds work together to avoid masking problems. But if you don't like that than you have the perfect keyboard to modify that, because the pa5x allowes you to modify anything you want in the sounds, the used mixing techniques, the sound colors, the dynamics, the ambient room reverbs that you can design yourself, it's insane what you can do on this arranger once you have taken the time to learn how this all works.

[leland_iko_music]

Thanks for the feedback, Qui.

I can fully understand the "detuning" in pad sounds, and that is very much expected... what is happening with me is that even just SIMPLE sounds like a piano or lead guitar is often coming out a few Hz out of tune, and quite honestly it hurts my brain... I'll clip an example for you in a while from one of my Twitch streams where it REALLY sticks out like a sore thumb.

for the MIDI tempo synch, I'll go back and re-check my settings based on your recommendation.

Cheers!


Leland

[AntonySharmman]

SIMPLE sounds like a piano is often coming out a few Hz out of tune, and quite honestly it hurts my brain

If master tune is at default factory settings , then this is not possible without a hardware issue involved , like Pitch Bend malfunction.

[leland_iko_music]

SIMPLE sounds like a piano is often coming out a few Hz out of tune, and quite honestly it hurts my brain

If master tune is at default factory settings , then this is not possible without a hardware issue involved , like Pitch Bend malfunction.

That is exactly what I fear it might be ...

Leland

[leland_iko_music]

Thanks for the feedback, Qui.


for the MIDI tempo synch, I'll go back and re-check my settings based on your recommendation.

Cheers!


Leland

I checked the MIDI settings ... for the tempo sync it does now (sort of) work with the loopstation as the master clock and the PA5X receiving clock from it. However, when a play or record function is used on the RC, it also triggers a PLAY on style player 1, even of the PA5X is in instrument edit mode...

As for re-sending the MIDI tempo information from the PA5X to Mainstage, that doesn't work. I currently have to set the tempo in mainstage manually since some of my plugins use arpeggiators so they need to be in tempo. (and in some cases I have to set Mainstage to half the tempo set on the loopstation, depending on what I'm doing...)

Just to explain my setup a little:

Code: Select all

               Nektar Pacer  -- [MIDI] -->  RC505Mk2   <--- Boss FS-6 footswitch
                             (Midi in)       |
                                                | (midi out)
                                             [MIDI]
                                                |
                                                v (midi in)
                                             PA5X
                                                |
                                                |  (MIDI over USB)
                                                v
                                             iMac   (Mainstage/Logic Pro/Keysight)

The Nektar Pacer and FS-6 are merely to control various functions and tracks on the RC505. (record/dub, all-start/all-stop, undo/redo, track effects, input effects, etc.)

For audio routing, the RC505 is also connected to the iMac via USB (it has a built-in 8 channel audio interface) - audio channels 1-2 go to the iMac and into any application for recording or streaming. Audio channels 5-6 are audio out from Mainstage/Logic Pro to bring the VST/Plugin audio back into the RC505 to include them in loop the overall mix.

Audio out from the PA5X goes through the Tascam mixer through standard left/right audio, and then the main output into the RC505.


Leland

[leland_iko_music]

@Qui

here's an example of several instruments going wildly out of tune ...
This gave me a major headache on stream last night

https://clips.twitch.tv/SingleToughWasp ... d1xla75vg6

the EP and the Bell Pad were several Hz Sharp, and one of the Clav's was a few Hz flat ...

I'm definitely thinking that it's a sticky or malfunctioning pitch-bend since it gets exacerbated if I use it -- especially for a lead synth or lead guitar sound.

I am not sure what the mechanism is behind the joystick, whether it's rollers that can be simply cleaned, or whether it's potentiometers which may need replacing ... but this is becoming more and more annoying, not only for me, but for my viewers ... I am, however, more and more leaning towards a faulty pitch-bend joystick since SOMETIMES (not always) if I jiggle the thing left and right the instrument concerned comes back into tune...


Leland

[F-Minor]

I feel sorry for you having buyer’s regret, I had the same feeling when I had bought the Nautilus after having done lots of research. It just wasn’t my instrument. After months of struggeling and worrying, I changed to PA5X and I’m happy with it since day 1. Good luck in your journey to find the gear that suits best to you!

[AntonySharmman]

this is becoming more and more annoying, not only for me, but for my viewers ...

Until you will address solution , copy KBD SET you use like pianos in user Banks , edit them disable Pitch Bend for upper sounds and save them there.
The most possible is joystick needs to be lubricated in order after release to return to the proper position.

[voip]

If an unreliable pitch bend control is suspected, it might be possible to use a MIDI data viewer, like MIDI-OX, to view the MIDI messages coming from the Pa5X, and set MIDI-OX to filter out all the messages, except pitch bend.

Using MIDI-OX, I was able to discover only the other day, that my sustain pedal contacts were unreliable and in need of cleaning. All good now :-)
.

[nonchai]

[quote="leland_iko_music"][quote="leland_iko_music"]Thanks for the
I checked the MIDI settings ... for the tempo sync it does now (sort of) work with the loopstation as the master clock and the PA5X receiving clock from it.
However, when a play or record function is used on the RC, it also triggers a PLAY on style player 1, even of the PA5X is in instrument edit mode...

Just to explain my setup a little:


Leland[/quote]

Hi

I'm just beginning to experiment with DAW- operation - namely Cubase and Logic - I also encountered this - namely that whenever - when sending MIDi clock from logic to PA5x. and pressing play in Logic it starts the PLAY1 style player plying - which I don't want as ive recorded the style MIDI data - edited it and want that to be played back via the PA5x sound engine - INSTEAD of using the PLAY1 style player -

Any joy?

[Biggles]

It was a case of a Pa5X or a Genos 2.

After trying a Genos 2 it was no contest, the 5X whipped it in every Dept.

After 6 months ownership I love mine.

I am not interested in MIDI at all on the 5X and so for a home player like myself it does not get better.

[JagiChan]

@Qui

here's an example of several instruments going wildly out of tune ...
This gave me a major headache on stream last night

https://clips.twitch.tv/SingleToughWasp ... d1xla75vg6

the EP and the Bell Pad were several Hz Sharp, and one of the Clav's was a few Hz flat ........

Leland

I saw the clip and I believe it is a hardware issue. Possibly the Pitch bender is causing the tones to be shifted. You could use the MIDI OUT and a DAW to check the pitch bender values being sent out by the PA5X.

[JagiChan]

It was a case of a Pa5X or a Genos 2.

After trying a Genos 2 it was no contest, the 5X whipped it in every Dept.

After 6 months ownership I love mine.

I am not interested in MIDI at all on the 5X and so for a home player like myself it does not get better.

Same thoughts for me too regarding the MIDI. I don't have a need for MIDI and external gear; happy with the PA5X as an arranger itself. However, I still believe that the MIDI implementation should function, because a lot of folks out there will be using the same (maybe I may also want to use the MIDI function at some point in time).

[leland_iko_music]

Hey all,

Just to let you know that I have found a fix to the pitch-bend/articulation joystick issue that I've been having for many months now. At first I thought I would have to remove the unit and either adjust or replace either the return springs or the potentiometers... However, just found this video on YouTube which TOTALLY FIXED THE PROBLEM!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbgFoVuEuWc

Happy Happy now (at least with that issue being resolved)


Leland