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Possible bug in Logic 8 + M1. Anyone else with this problem?
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:26 am
by mercybox
In LP8, open an Audio Instrument track with M! on it. Assign the MIDI channel for the track (over on the left in Logic) to ALL. Make sure your MIDI keyboard is transmitting on channel 1. Then play. You should hear sound. Now send a Program Change from your keyboard. Doesn't work, at least not for me.
Interestingly, if you change the MIDI channel on the track to 1, and then change your MIDI keyboard transmit channel to something else (eg. 2). It will do PCs just fine. It seems that, when Logic handles the message in some way, such as re-channelizing it, it seems to work.
This is a really strange bug for me. Is anyone else having this problem? I'd like to know if it's just me. ;-/
Btw, it's a PPC G5, 10.4.11 with Logic 8.0.2 and the latest Legacy updates (April 2007?)
Cheers,
Blue
Re: Possible bug in Logic 8 + M1. Anyone else with this prob
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:30 am
by Ben Hall
mercybox wrote:In LP8, open an Audio Instrument track with M! on it. Assign the MIDI channel for the track (over on the left in Logic) to ALL. Make sure your MIDI keyboard is transmitting on channel 1. Then play. You should hear sound. Now send a Program Change from your keyboard. Doesn't work, at least not for me.
Ok - seeing as you are not re-channelising here, the program change will be passed on on its original channel. Are you sure the program change is being sent on channel 1?
(Is the M1 in program or combi mode for this?)
mercybox wrote:Interestingly, if you change the MIDI channel on the track to 1, and then change your MIDI keyboard transmit channel to something else (eg. 2). It will do PCs just fine. It seems that, when Logic handles the message in some way, such as re-channelizing it, it seems to work.
Ok, here Logic is forcing program changes to channel 1, and it's working.
I would check you really are sending program changes on channel 1 in the first instance - your master keyboard might be sending notes on channel 1, but set to send program changes on another channel.
In the meantime, I will see how it works here and get back to you...
Also - remember that Logic's "Channel Strip as Performance" function uses incoming program changes to select whole channel strips - this might be intercepting program changes on channel 1 for the channel strip and therefore not passing them onto the M1.
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:40 am
by Ben Hall
With the M1 in program mode, sending program changes on channel 1 to the M1 with the instrument object set to "All" MIDI channels (no rechannelising) works here without problems.
Logic 8.0.2
In program mode, the M1 responds to program changes on the "Global Channel" set in the global page - so if this is set to channel eg 14, the M1 will respond to program changes on channel 14 in program mode.
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:17 pm
by mercybox
Thanks Ben. <sigh> I hate problems like this.
I know that my keyboard is transmitting PCs on channel 1. I can see the message in "midi activity" section of the transport window. Also, I closed Logic and opened the standalone version of M1 and everything works fine. The global channel on the M1 is set to 1 as well. I'm having the same problem with the Wavestation plugin as well but, again, only in Logic 8. They work fine in Logic 6 and in standalone mode.
I'm going to keep trying to track this down. Thanks for your help.
Blue
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:45 pm
by Ben Hall
if you set the M1 global channel to something other than 1, and transmit on the same channel, does it work then?
I think the likely culprit is Logic's channel strip performance feature - if you avoid MIDI channel 1, you should be fine.
I can't remember offhand if you have to have channel strips saved as performances in order to activate this mode - I'll check in a sec...
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:13 pm
by mercybox
Ok, I changed the global channel on the M1 to 2, changed the channel strip's channel to 2 as well, then transmitted a PC from my keyboard set to channel 1. No luck. When I set my keyboard to transmit on any other channel it works. Not with channel 1.
Also, I found a couple of other plugins that use program changes (not many do) and I'm having the exact same problem. So maybe this thread should be in a Logic forum since that pretty much rules out a Korg-specific problem.
I've never used the channel strip performance feature. I'll look into that, though, in case I turned it on by accident.
EDIT: I just discovered something else. If I record a track with program changes (sent from my keyboard on channel 1), the plugin changes programs just fine when I play the track back. Weird.
Thanks,
Blue
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:31 pm
by Ben Hall
mercybox wrote:Ok, I changed the global channel on the M1 to 2, changed the channel strip's channel to 2 as well, then transmitted a PC from my keyboard set to channel 1. No luck. When I set my keyboard to transmit on any other channel it works. Not with channel 1.
Does it work if you trash your preferences?
Does it work if you use a brand new fresh default song? (Option click on File -> New)
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:33 pm
by mercybox
Trashed the prefs for both the Korg plugs and Logic. Tried an empty song. Even logged into a fresh "test" account on my computer that I keep for troubleshooting. No difference.
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:07 pm
by Ben Hall
mercybox wrote:Tried an empty song.
Is this an "empty" song based on your existing autoload, or via the method I described? If the former, that doesn't tell me anything - if the latter, then it's nothing to do with your song or environment settings, which rules those things out (which is what I was trying to do.)
Like I say, it's most likely the channel strip performance feature which reserves program changes on channel 1 for the channel strip...
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:03 am
by mercybox
No, it's a brand new song with none of my prefs or environment stuff in it (from the File>New menu).
If it is the channel strip performance thing, I can't help but think that was a bloody stupid thing to do when you don't give people a way to turn the "feature" off. You're probably right, though. It sounds like it. The only thing is, if doesn't explain why this works on your system and not on mine.
Btw, I'm sure a lot of people tell you this, but I really loved all your Wavestation stuff. I've put your patches to good use over the years in my hardware Wavestation. Thanks a bunch for that!
Blue
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:47 am
by Ben Hall
mercybox wrote:If it is the channel strip performance thing, I can't help but think that was a bloody stupid thing to do when you don't give people a way to turn the "feature" off. You're probably right, though. It sounds like it.
Yes, it is the Channel Strip Performance thing. A better implementation of this in Logic would be that channel 1 is forwarded to the plugin as normal if there were no performances saved, but unfortunately it doesn't work like this.
mercybox wrote:The only thing is, if doesn't explain why this works on your system and not on mine.
Here's the detail. The reason I said it works for me is that I simply used the environment to send program changes to the channel strip with the plugin. This works on channel 1 - ie those messages are passed through to the plugin.
It *doesn't* work with live program changes coming in via MIDI.
This is because it's presumably handled by the controller assignments part of Logic, which intercepts any MIDI events destined to control Logic and filters them out of the MIDI stream - this means Logic (the environment/sequencer part of Logic) never receives these events.
*Edit: Actually, this seems not to be strictly true - those events *do* show up in the environment. This means, in light if what works above, it might be possible to route them directly to the channel strip and bypass whatever is doing the filtering.
In any case, the workaround is easy enough - just don't use channel 1. Set your transmit keyboard to channel 2+, and set your M1 to a matching global channel, and all will work fine.
The transmit channel on your master keyboard is mostly irrelevant these days anyway, as most of the time Logic will be rechannelising where necessary.
> Thanks a bunch for that!
You're welcome!
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:10 am
by mercybox
Thanks a lot, Ben. At least I won't be tearing my hair out anymore. I'll change my keyboard transmitting channel to something else. I should probably leave the M1 global channel at 1, though, otherwise the Combination patches won't work as most of them are set for channel 1. I'll just let Logic re-channelize the MIDI for me.
Btw, I also cabled up the physical input object directly to the channel strip and I was having the same problem. That must mean that Logic is intercepting the PCs before the input object. It's hard to figure out how you can go "further back" up the chain then the physical input object so I guess we're stuck with this "feature". Ah well, maybe I'll make use of it some way.
Now, if only I could get the multi-outputs on M1 to work!!! lol
Cheers,
Blue