Hi -
Really tight for time but just did an hour or so playing on the new KARO KGP1 - Steinway and Fazioli Grand Pianos.
Steinway - like the Bosendorfer - has true, real acoustic character. I love it - the Grand Piano programs variations are excellent and extremely well and usefully programmed. The rock pianos are magnificent rock pianos - a Steinway tailored to be a sharp, cutting rock piano - it just doesn't get better than this - except :
Fazioli - Oh Good God Tonight. I absolute adore it. The precision. It is impeccable. I am going to fall in love with this piano.
I know I'm sometimes a bit OTT in my appraisal of these pianos; but they really do sound fantastic to me - this package is the REAL DEAL - the programming is now absolutely flawless, and they utterly redefine OASYS as a digital piano.
I threw myself (and my credit card) into the deep end and bought all Karo pianos; so as and when I get a chance to try the others I'll mention them here - but KGP1 is great - you will not be disappointed - it's gorgeous and water tight in quality, in my opinion (and again I have no connection whatsoever with Karo so there is no prompting to praise them - if and when I have felt Karo programming was a bit off I said it straight up in previous posts).
Kevin.
KARO KGP 1 - Steinway and Fazioli - magnificent
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Kevin Nolan
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kenackr
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Kevin,
Thanks for the update on the Karo pianos. It's good to hear of the high quality.
Just wondering if you've had time yet to compare the Karo Steinway to the EXS2 provided with the Oasys. I haven't spent a lot of time playing EXS2, because life happens but I thought it was beautiful.
Just wondering how something could be better than EXS2.
I still miss my old grand, but it was loosing pitch and had to go. One of these days I still might buy another grand, but at $30 to 40 K, it far over shadows the O in price.
Ken
Thanks for the update on the Karo pianos. It's good to hear of the high quality.
Just wondering if you've had time yet to compare the Karo Steinway to the EXS2 provided with the Oasys. I haven't spent a lot of time playing EXS2, because life happens but I thought it was beautiful.
Just wondering how something could be better than EXS2.
I still miss my old grand, but it was loosing pitch and had to go. One of these days I still might buy another grand, but at $30 to 40 K, it far over shadows the O in price.
Ken
O88, T1, Wavestation, M1r, Pa 4X 76, Proteus 1-3, Morpheus, UltraProteus, K1200, Akai S2000, DP8
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Kevin Nolan
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Hi Ken -
Yes - I have played around on both. I suppose the difference is this - EXs2 is absolutely forensically correct; but it's perhaps missing a little context – some work on a proper reverb setting would do EXs2 a lot of favours.
By contrast, KARO's Steinway - a beautiful Steinway - and it does sound like a Steinway - contains just a small amount of room acoustic. This gives it a very warm feel and a lot of character. TKaro also offer 9 variations on this as a Grand Piano and then several excellent rock piano programs - so its a very versatile package. I absolutely love it. But playing this has given me a new respect for Exs2 – and that’s not taking away form Karo’s Steinway.
Indeed, Karo's Steinway, Borsendorfer an Bechstein all share a very nice warm and natural feel. I have a diploma in piano so I have given them a run over with a few sonatas, Debussy pieces and the few rock and more jazzy pieces (the few I know) - and they have responded very well.
There are no doubt better dedicated packages out there; but in my view Karo's pianos have buckets of character and I think that's what I love about them. Its possible to be too enthusiastic about new packages; but these pianos are a huge addition to OASYS and deserve real credit
Having said that - there are still a few teething problems I noticed after my first post today that need to be mentioned here (sorry Karo!) regarding one of their Fazioli pianos and their Fender Rhodes:
- While you notice I mention that the Steinway (KGP!), Bosendorfer and Bechstein (KGP2) have wonderful character, the other piano on KGP1 - the Faziolo is more interesting. Karo provide two distinctly separate sample and program sets on this make of Piano. I'm not sure whether they are two different Faziolo pianos, or the same one sampled twice.
However - while Faziolo 1 is just the business - absolutely amazing (and now my favourite by far); Faziolo 2 has serious problems. Namely - the tone of the samples across the four velocity layers are so distinctly different that this piano sound completely un-natural. Playing piano and forte sounds as if you are playing two entirely different pianos rather than the same one at greater velocity. So this one has slipped through the net and is nowhere near the quality of the others. And I should say that All the other acoustic pianos are completely fine in this regard - but Fazioli 2 definitely needs more work.
And the same is still the case for KEP1 - Fender Rhodes. Its 4 layers contain samples that are so different in character in each velocity layer that it is utterly unplayable as currently programmed - while lower velocity layers are the more broad slightly distorted metallic sound of the Rhodes, the upper layers are the purer 'vibraphone/bell-chime' tones and utterly different in character to the lower velocity layers. So this renders the Fender Rhodes unplayable - even the slightest difference in playing say a scale where one finger plays at greater velocity to the others brings in the pure vibraphone/bell character samples, while the rest of the scale run sounds on the lower velocity layers. It’s totally un natural and unplayable.
I emailed Karo on this; so hopefully they might look at it. Again this is not a problem to the CP70 which is great, but I have not tested the Wurlitzer yet.
I think the Fender Rhodes is particularly problematic because the OASYS only offers 4 layers. The tone of a Fender Rhodes low and high velocity note are so different that probably 20-30 layers are needed to pull this off. Hence they should probably split their programs into two and offer low velocity and high velocity programs (as is common on many workstations - especially Yamaha EX5/Motif and Roland XV/Fantom). The quality of the fender Rhodes samples is second to none – it’s just that over only 4 layers the voicing is wrong. With, say, two layers on a low velocity program, and a little velocity programming on amplitude and filter cutoff, these Fender Rhodes samples could be converted into very nice programs.
cheers,
Kevin.
Yes - I have played around on both. I suppose the difference is this - EXs2 is absolutely forensically correct; but it's perhaps missing a little context – some work on a proper reverb setting would do EXs2 a lot of favours.
By contrast, KARO's Steinway - a beautiful Steinway - and it does sound like a Steinway - contains just a small amount of room acoustic. This gives it a very warm feel and a lot of character. TKaro also offer 9 variations on this as a Grand Piano and then several excellent rock piano programs - so its a very versatile package. I absolutely love it. But playing this has given me a new respect for Exs2 – and that’s not taking away form Karo’s Steinway.
Indeed, Karo's Steinway, Borsendorfer an Bechstein all share a very nice warm and natural feel. I have a diploma in piano so I have given them a run over with a few sonatas, Debussy pieces and the few rock and more jazzy pieces (the few I know) - and they have responded very well.
There are no doubt better dedicated packages out there; but in my view Karo's pianos have buckets of character and I think that's what I love about them. Its possible to be too enthusiastic about new packages; but these pianos are a huge addition to OASYS and deserve real credit
Having said that - there are still a few teething problems I noticed after my first post today that need to be mentioned here (sorry Karo!) regarding one of their Fazioli pianos and their Fender Rhodes:
- While you notice I mention that the Steinway (KGP!), Bosendorfer and Bechstein (KGP2) have wonderful character, the other piano on KGP1 - the Faziolo is more interesting. Karo provide two distinctly separate sample and program sets on this make of Piano. I'm not sure whether they are two different Faziolo pianos, or the same one sampled twice.
However - while Faziolo 1 is just the business - absolutely amazing (and now my favourite by far); Faziolo 2 has serious problems. Namely - the tone of the samples across the four velocity layers are so distinctly different that this piano sound completely un-natural. Playing piano and forte sounds as if you are playing two entirely different pianos rather than the same one at greater velocity. So this one has slipped through the net and is nowhere near the quality of the others. And I should say that All the other acoustic pianos are completely fine in this regard - but Fazioli 2 definitely needs more work.
And the same is still the case for KEP1 - Fender Rhodes. Its 4 layers contain samples that are so different in character in each velocity layer that it is utterly unplayable as currently programmed - while lower velocity layers are the more broad slightly distorted metallic sound of the Rhodes, the upper layers are the purer 'vibraphone/bell-chime' tones and utterly different in character to the lower velocity layers. So this renders the Fender Rhodes unplayable - even the slightest difference in playing say a scale where one finger plays at greater velocity to the others brings in the pure vibraphone/bell character samples, while the rest of the scale run sounds on the lower velocity layers. It’s totally un natural and unplayable.
I emailed Karo on this; so hopefully they might look at it. Again this is not a problem to the CP70 which is great, but I have not tested the Wurlitzer yet.
I think the Fender Rhodes is particularly problematic because the OASYS only offers 4 layers. The tone of a Fender Rhodes low and high velocity note are so different that probably 20-30 layers are needed to pull this off. Hence they should probably split their programs into two and offer low velocity and high velocity programs (as is common on many workstations - especially Yamaha EX5/Motif and Roland XV/Fantom). The quality of the fender Rhodes samples is second to none – it’s just that over only 4 layers the voicing is wrong. With, say, two layers on a low velocity program, and a little velocity programming on amplitude and filter cutoff, these Fender Rhodes samples could be converted into very nice programs.
cheers,
Kevin.
Karo - Pianos Disk 2
I had hoped to folllow-up your discussion on the Karo pianos having just received my Disk 2 accoustic - Bosendorfer/Bechsteain Disk. However, I tried to load the files and can't get them to work.
I placed the Cd into the oasys tray, hit disk. in the load mode, I got the Karo folder. I hit open, got to the KGP2, hit open, got to 6 files, hit multiple select and then load. Check ok for ARE YOU SURE, then check yes to LOAD B DORFER PCG.then hit ok and got MEMORY OVERFLOW.
nesxt load B-Stein pcg and got MEMORY OVERFLOW again.
When I went to PRogram Modoe, Bank USER A, 13 proegrams were loaded, but do not play.
I did this again, just loading Bosendorfer files, and got the same message. Going to User A, I am getting a few notes out of a few of the proglrams, all in the left speaker.
What am I doing wrong?
Please help
I placed the Cd into the oasys tray, hit disk. in the load mode, I got the Karo folder. I hit open, got to the KGP2, hit open, got to 6 files, hit multiple select and then load. Check ok for ARE YOU SURE, then check yes to LOAD B DORFER PCG.then hit ok and got MEMORY OVERFLOW.
nesxt load B-Stein pcg and got MEMORY OVERFLOW again.
When I went to PRogram Modoe, Bank USER A, 13 proegrams were loaded, but do not play.
I did this again, just loading Bosendorfer files, and got the same message. Going to User A, I am getting a few notes out of a few of the proglrams, all in the left speaker.
What am I doing wrong?
Please help
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Kevin Nolan
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Hi newguy -
It looks like you already have EXs1, Exs2 and EXs3 loaded - so you do not have enough memory left to load a Karo Piano. to solve this - go to:
Global mode -> Basic Tab -> Basic Setup Menu -> Expansion Sample Setup and deselect any of the EXs's (I disable EXs2 because Karo write over EXs2 programs bu default in any case). If you are on OS V 1.3.1 then you will not need to reboot - the OASYS should free up the memory and now you can load any one of your programs.
In a provious post - I mentioned that I like the Bosendorfer a lot but that I think it needs about a 5dB cut at about 400- 500 Hz - I'd be interested in your opinion on that.
cheers,
Kevin.
It looks like you already have EXs1, Exs2 and EXs3 loaded - so you do not have enough memory left to load a Karo Piano. to solve this - go to:
Global mode -> Basic Tab -> Basic Setup Menu -> Expansion Sample Setup and deselect any of the EXs's (I disable EXs2 because Karo write over EXs2 programs bu default in any case). If you are on OS V 1.3.1 then you will not need to reboot - the OASYS should free up the memory and now you can load any one of your programs.
In a provious post - I mentioned that I like the Bosendorfer a lot but that I think it needs about a 5dB cut at about 400- 500 Hz - I'd be interested in your opinion on that.
cheers,
Kevin.
Karo Pianos
Kevin,
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. in fact, shortly after I posted, I remembered what memory overflow meant and turned off Ex2 and Ex3 sounds.
WOW.
I have been disappointed from the beginning with the Oasys EX2 pianos. Your description, calling them "forensically correct" was dead on accurate, as I have always found the sound there, but could not get any emotions out of those programs.
I am happy to report that after playing the Bosen/Bech programs, I finally got what I was looking for - at least in that area. The softs are truly soft (not so with Ex2), the louds are not over-crisp. I did notice a few inconsistancies in sound, that in my first run (being an over-critical bastard), I thought I might have tweaked, but I haven't given it a full chance yet and plan to do so in the next few days.
I will, no doubt, order the K1 programs by then, but I will forward a more detailed report later in the week.
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. in fact, shortly after I posted, I remembered what memory overflow meant and turned off Ex2 and Ex3 sounds.
WOW.
I have been disappointed from the beginning with the Oasys EX2 pianos. Your description, calling them "forensically correct" was dead on accurate, as I have always found the sound there, but could not get any emotions out of those programs.
I am happy to report that after playing the Bosen/Bech programs, I finally got what I was looking for - at least in that area. The softs are truly soft (not so with Ex2), the louds are not over-crisp. I did notice a few inconsistancies in sound, that in my first run (being an over-critical bastard), I thought I might have tweaked, but I haven't given it a full chance yet and plan to do so in the next few days.
I will, no doubt, order the K1 programs by then, but I will forward a more detailed report later in the week.
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Kevin Nolan
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Sina172 -
I have played a Fazioli!
But I think claims of what is the finest or best must also be always be subjective. I agree Faziolo pianos are meticulous; but if I were to play Debussy's Le Cathedrale Engloutie Prelude for example, I's sooner play it on a Bosendorfer since Debussy composed it at a Bosendorfer (and it needs that deep clear, powering bass). Perhaps because of popular trend only through the twentieth century (with the advent of piano competitions) - but Beethoven sounds exquisite on Steinway while arguably a little too brittle on Fazioli; while there can be little dispute that Bach sounds divine on Fazioli. All of this is of course completely subjective.
Now back to my supposed comparison - I didn't actually make any comparison between Karo's emulations and the real thing - such a comparison is pointless. My acoustic piano is a 100 year old Brinsmede from London - and I infinitely prefer playing it to any digital emulation. It’s my friend, it has a myriad of quirks – but I love it.
So my comments on the Fazioli were purely my subjective opinion against other digital emulations of other piano that come to mind. To me, Fazioli 1 is absolutely fabulous. I’m confident that other dedicate packages will be superior for all sorts of reasons, but Karo’s Fazioli 1 is, to me, great and I’ll use it a lot (actually I have five or six dedicated pianos but my Apple computer went belly-up some months back and because I'm committed to two big bodies of work till early next year not needing my apple, I haven't replaced it. So I can't compare Karo to my dedicated packages just yet).
However - and I do not want to undermine Karo's work because of the pianos that work well - but Fazioli 2 (on KGP1) is flawed in its programming. The sample velocities are too distinct and do not work. Indeed, as with the Fender Rhodes (and it’s the same problem), the quality of the samples is 2nd to none, it’s just that over 4 layers, Fazioli 2 does not sound right. I believe that anyone who tries it out will hear this quite easily – but I’ll be delighted to stand corrected on that if someone else tries it out. I think the only way you can confirm for yourself is to purchase KGP1, load Fazioli 2 and try it.
Now that I think about it - perhaps the problem pertains to your key point Sina172about th edynamics of Fazioli pianos - perhaps Karo sampled the Fazioli for Fazioli2 over too great a dynamic range for four layers. Indeed; I personally find this to be a perpetual problem on digital pianos. On K-Sound pianos for K2500XS for example, a similar problem persists where allocating the entire dynamic range from ppp to fff even over the 128 velocity levels of MIDI - as played from a typical weighted keyboard - sounds very unnatural and amplifies velocity inconsistencies. Hence I much prefer digital pianos sampled over less dynamic range and with amplifier and filter velocity setting providing some of the dynamics also – that sound more natural. The bottom line is that Fazioli 2, for whatever reason, is not playable.
But to anyone reading this - in my opinion, and I accept it’s my opinion only, KGP 1 is still an absolutely excellent package and completely worth every penny - it also provides the Steinway and Fazioli 1 as well, and both of those are, in my opinion, absolutely gorgeous. KGP2 with the Bosendorfer and Bechstein show none of the issues of Fazioli 2. So of the acoustic pianos, this issue is specific to Fazioli2 (and has absolutely nothing to do with comparing to an actual Fazioli piano - it's a programming thing).
Overall, KGP1 and KGP2 are magnificent additions to the OASYS and to me that’s the bottom line. Four of the five pianos are wonderful. They are not absolutely perfect - but they have bucket loads of character. And each package is very reasonably priced. I love improvising, and now I love improvising on the OASYS. I've never played it like this before. So, as far as sample packages can go - these pianos will sound great live, upfront in any mix, and don't sound too bad either when playing (the few) classical standard bearers (that I know).
Sorry, yet again, for such a long post - but actually I think that's inevitable when discussing sampled pianos in particular.
Cheers,
Kevin
I have played a Fazioli!
But I think claims of what is the finest or best must also be always be subjective. I agree Faziolo pianos are meticulous; but if I were to play Debussy's Le Cathedrale Engloutie Prelude for example, I's sooner play it on a Bosendorfer since Debussy composed it at a Bosendorfer (and it needs that deep clear, powering bass). Perhaps because of popular trend only through the twentieth century (with the advent of piano competitions) - but Beethoven sounds exquisite on Steinway while arguably a little too brittle on Fazioli; while there can be little dispute that Bach sounds divine on Fazioli. All of this is of course completely subjective.
Now back to my supposed comparison - I didn't actually make any comparison between Karo's emulations and the real thing - such a comparison is pointless. My acoustic piano is a 100 year old Brinsmede from London - and I infinitely prefer playing it to any digital emulation. It’s my friend, it has a myriad of quirks – but I love it.
So my comments on the Fazioli were purely my subjective opinion against other digital emulations of other piano that come to mind. To me, Fazioli 1 is absolutely fabulous. I’m confident that other dedicate packages will be superior for all sorts of reasons, but Karo’s Fazioli 1 is, to me, great and I’ll use it a lot (actually I have five or six dedicated pianos but my Apple computer went belly-up some months back and because I'm committed to two big bodies of work till early next year not needing my apple, I haven't replaced it. So I can't compare Karo to my dedicated packages just yet).
However - and I do not want to undermine Karo's work because of the pianos that work well - but Fazioli 2 (on KGP1) is flawed in its programming. The sample velocities are too distinct and do not work. Indeed, as with the Fender Rhodes (and it’s the same problem), the quality of the samples is 2nd to none, it’s just that over 4 layers, Fazioli 2 does not sound right. I believe that anyone who tries it out will hear this quite easily – but I’ll be delighted to stand corrected on that if someone else tries it out. I think the only way you can confirm for yourself is to purchase KGP1, load Fazioli 2 and try it.
Now that I think about it - perhaps the problem pertains to your key point Sina172about th edynamics of Fazioli pianos - perhaps Karo sampled the Fazioli for Fazioli2 over too great a dynamic range for four layers. Indeed; I personally find this to be a perpetual problem on digital pianos. On K-Sound pianos for K2500XS for example, a similar problem persists where allocating the entire dynamic range from ppp to fff even over the 128 velocity levels of MIDI - as played from a typical weighted keyboard - sounds very unnatural and amplifies velocity inconsistencies. Hence I much prefer digital pianos sampled over less dynamic range and with amplifier and filter velocity setting providing some of the dynamics also – that sound more natural. The bottom line is that Fazioli 2, for whatever reason, is not playable.
But to anyone reading this - in my opinion, and I accept it’s my opinion only, KGP 1 is still an absolutely excellent package and completely worth every penny - it also provides the Steinway and Fazioli 1 as well, and both of those are, in my opinion, absolutely gorgeous. KGP2 with the Bosendorfer and Bechstein show none of the issues of Fazioli 2. So of the acoustic pianos, this issue is specific to Fazioli2 (and has absolutely nothing to do with comparing to an actual Fazioli piano - it's a programming thing).
Overall, KGP1 and KGP2 are magnificent additions to the OASYS and to me that’s the bottom line. Four of the five pianos are wonderful. They are not absolutely perfect - but they have bucket loads of character. And each package is very reasonably priced. I love improvising, and now I love improvising on the OASYS. I've never played it like this before. So, as far as sample packages can go - these pianos will sound great live, upfront in any mix, and don't sound too bad either when playing (the few) classical standard bearers (that I know).
Sorry, yet again, for such a long post - but actually I think that's inevitable when discussing sampled pianos in particular.
Cheers,
Kevin
Hello to everyone!
So when I see this discussion here
I think the Karo piano bundle is absolute top class and plays for me in league 1
The Rhodes pianos are for me also a highlight and a must have!
Belive me, I still have my Fender next too my O.
I `am happy that we have a company like Karo and they updatetd my Oasys everytime with new high quality samples
Cheers,
oasys76
So when I see this discussion here
I think the Karo piano bundle is absolute top class and plays for me in league 1
The Rhodes pianos are for me also a highlight and a must have!
Belive me, I still have my Fender next too my O.
I `am happy that we have a company like Karo and they updatetd my Oasys everytime with new high quality samples
Cheers,
oasys76
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medusaland
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Hi Oasysans,
first, I would also like to thank for the numerous PM `s and emails with all the positive feedback
Here a short brief correction to the Fazioli 2!
This piano was an experiment, and although it consists of the basic samples from "Fazioli 1" and the "Steinway". This piano-mix sounds completely different! I think in the choice of 7 pianos is something for everyone
ps: let's see what next comes from KARO into the future!?
Best wishes,
KARO Sound Development
medusaland & EWBR
first, I would also like to thank for the numerous PM `s and emails with all the positive feedback
Here a short brief correction to the Fazioli 2!
This piano was an experiment, and although it consists of the basic samples from "Fazioli 1" and the "Steinway". This piano-mix sounds completely different! I think in the choice of 7 pianos is something for everyone
ps: let's see what next comes from KARO into the future!?
Best wishes,
KARO Sound Development
medusaland & EWBR
Last edited by medusaland on Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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medusaland
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