Korg DS-10 thread!

spencer vex · Post by **spencer vex** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:35 am

anybody wanna buy a DS?

its barely been touched

SMK · Post by **SMK** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:26 am

RELEASE knob:

xmlguy wrote: That leads me to the first problem. The Release on the synth tracks doesn't seem to work right. Any release value besides zero pretty much becomes an infinite release. Strange, but not really a major problem except for pads/long sustain notes and chords (using the dual OSC for multiple notes).

Check your Decay and Sustain settings because they play a huge part on your Release, same goes for either or the decay and sustain. For example Sustain plays a huge part in controlling pitch or volume depending on how you have your EG set or what settings you have on your VCOs or if you added a few patch cables here or there. Get the picture? It's amazing how quickly setting change or what role the knobs play based on one little setting

OK now for the other stuff:

xmlguy wrote: The first major problem I found is that there seems to be no way to copy an individual sequence between SYN1 SEQ and SYN2, or from SYN1 on one pattern to SYN1 or SYN2 on another pattern. You can only copy a whole pattern from one to another. That is extremely bad news, because if there is one SEQ you like but one you don't on a pattern, you have to attempt to manually recreate it, which is virtually impossible if you recorded the sequence using the KAOSS pad.

Well, this is hardly an issue. Granted you can't copy a sequence but then again this is a pocket device much like the KO-1. However there are a few excepts *tongue firmly pressed into cheek here* like you can't edit Kaoss position on the KO-1 and save different songs on KO-1, create new sounds and save them, and the list goes on and on and on of what can't be done on that pocket device that, thank the gods, I can do on my DS-10. Again this isn't "extremely bad" news this is a pocket Kaoss pad based synth device. What you may not be able to achieve in one device you work out in another.

xmlguy wrote: The second major problem is that the Song mode doesn't allow any improvisation while the song is playing. The song only plays the saved patterns and stops playing if you attempt to modify any pattern or use a Kaoss pad to jam on top of it. That is TERRIBLE. With all the other Kaoss stuff you can always jam on top of whatever is playing. That make Song mode useless for me for live jamming. Fortunately, the workaround is to not use Song mode and directly select Patterns, which do let you use the Kaoss pad to improve on top of the playback. Whatever you play on the Kaoss will replace whatever notes are currently sequenced on the SYN patch you use, but that's OK and that's how the EMX works when using the arp ribbon. The EMX lets you jam on top of a song, of course.

Yep there is no way to improvise over a song but then again if one is recording tracks made in the DS-10 while playing say another instrument why would you want to. The song mode is primarily for the rest of us who are happy with the track and now are ready to work with the rest our instruments. The DS-10 makes perfect backing beats, especially for guitarists out there. Now the work around you speak of is actually how those who perform live with the DS-10. Thats what the pattern buttons are for, to be played. again, this is a pocket device that just happens to have high quality sounds. This may not have all the convenience of EMX or a Tritian but for being something one could walk around with, and recharge and play at any given time, then later use those tunes for real work, it's pretty nifty

xmlguy wrote: Another oddity is that there doesn't seem to be a way to automatically stop a song once you start it. It automatically loops. You have to manually stop the song yourself, which means you've got to pad the song with blank space at the end and remember to stop it.

Or you can put blank spaces in the beginning of the grid which seems to work better.

Ok I'm done defending...

Is there anybody else out there that have done some amazing stuff with this thing that would like to share, tips ideas or just show off. I know you're out there. I see you guys on Vimeo and youtube???

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:02 pm

SMK wrote:
xmlguy wrote: The first major problem I found is that there seems to be no way to copy an individual sequence between SYN1 SEQ and SYN2, or from SYN1 on one pattern to SYN1 or SYN2 on another pattern. You can only copy a whole pattern from one to another. That is extremely bad news, because if there is one SEQ you like but one you don't on a pattern, you have to attempt to manually recreate it, which is virtually impossible if you recorded the sequence using the KAOSS pad.
Well, this is hardly an issue. Granted you can't copy a sequence but then again this is a pocket device much like the KO-1. However there are a few excepts *tongue firmly pressed into cheek here* like you can't edit Kaoss position on the KO-1 and save different songs on KO-1, create new sounds and save them, and the list goes on and on and on of what can't be done on that pocket device that, thank the gods, I can do on my DS-10. Again this isn't "extremely bad" news this is a pocket Kaoss pad based synth device. What you may not be able to achieve in one device you work out in another.

You seem to think I'm defending the K01 vs. the DS-10. I'm not. It is pointless to discuss sequencing in relation to the K01 because it doesn't have a sequencer, only a looper. The EMX-1 does have a sequencer, along with the DS-10. It's a HUGE deal not to be able to copy an individual sequence on a sequencer. It's indefensible.

SMK wrote:
xmlguy wrote: The second major problem is that the Song mode doesn't allow any improvisation while the song is playing. The song only plays the saved patterns and stops playing if you attempt to modify any pattern or use a Kaoss pad to jam on top of it. That is TERRIBLE. With all the other Kaoss stuff you can always jam on top of whatever is playing. That make Song mode useless for me for live jamming. Fortunately, the workaround is to not use Song mode and directly select Patterns, which do let you use the Kaoss pad to improve on top of the playback. Whatever you play on the Kaoss will replace whatever notes are currently sequenced on the SYN patch you use, but that's OK and that's how the EMX works when using the arp ribbon. The EMX lets you jam on top of a song, of course.
Yep there is no way to improvise over a song but then again if one is recording tracks made in the DS-10 while playing say another instrument why would you want to. The song mode is primarily for the rest of us who are happy with the track and now are ready to work with the rest our instruments. The DS-10 makes perfect backing beats, especially for guitarists out there. Now the work around you speak of is actually how those who perform live with the DS-10. Thats what the pattern buttons are for, to be played. again, this is a pocket device that just happens to have high quality sounds. This may not have all the convenience of EMX or a Tritian but for being something one could walk around with, and recharge and play at any given time, then later use those tunes for real work, it's pretty nifty

Are you seriously questioning why someone would want to improvise over a song? The whole history of music since the start of the blues and jazz shows why improvisation is important. In fact, that's why most of the videos of the DS-10 show people improvising ON OTHER GEAR along with the DS-10. It isn't unusual to expect to be able to improvise on it while a song is playing, and in fact, nearly all sequencers do allow this except the DS-10.

Please realize that I'm not attacking the DS-10. I'm merely describing the problems I've found in my limited time with it. I bought it and I'm not selling it. I'd like these problems fixed. Other people buying it should also be aware of its limitations, just as they show know the limitations of the Kaossilator, EMX, KP3, and any other gear. These limitations may not be a problem for some people, but knowing them gives them a more educated decision process than someone who just says "It's great" or "It sucks". That's why I'm describing the problems in detail.

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:08 pm

Thanks for detailed information, both of you.
Not being able to copy individual sequences is definately an issue. Any chance these things could be sorted through an update? Is it indeed possible, given the prog being on a disk..?

xmlguy, what you say about the drum parts is very interesting. What are these generators capable of, really? I thought they were limited to drum type sounds, is it possible to make other stuff as well?

Thanks again.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:27 pm

The DS-10 has two oscillators per voice with sine, saw, and square waves, along with noise. It has a single filter with HighPass, LowPass, and Bandpass modes. It can pretty much do any synth sound, not just drums. It has two main synth parts, but the drums parts are also editable to make them do any sounds too, such as bass lines, leads, or pads. It also has a pretty good patch matrix that lets you control the VCO, VCF, and VCA stages using different LFO waves, the envelope or the output of VCO2. That's a pretty extensive amount of VA synthesis. It can't playback or record samples, so it's VA synthesis only.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:10 pm

I think I discovered the problem I was experiencing with the Release. The envelope was be cutoff for other reasons before the Release was occuring. There was a patch on the VCA that was cutting it off. Release is working fine.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:26 pm

I've uploaded my first short song done with the DS-10 as the primary sequencer, with the KP3 used for some effects and a bass synth pad.

Check out the track IndianGroove DS10KP3 on MySpace:

http://www.myspace.com/sonicbitstream

The track Major Imperfections was done with the Kaossilator and SP-404 sampler.

SMK · Post by **SMK** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:53 am

xmlguy wrote:The DS-10 has two oscillators per voice with sine, saw, and square waves, along with noise. It has a single filter with HighPass, LowPass, and Bandpass modes. It can pretty much do any synth sound, not just drums. It has two main synth parts, but the drums parts are also editable to make them do any sounds too, such as bass lines, leads, or pads. It also has a pretty good patch matrix that lets you control the VCO, VCF, and VCA stages using different LFO waves, the envelope or the output of VCO2. That's a pretty extensive amount of VA synthesis. It can't playback or record samples, so it's VA synthesis only.

What XMLguy has said here really describes the sound capabilities to a "T". the only thing is that you really have to have a fair amount of knowledge on getting the sounds you want. There really is not an existing guide book for this thing (that is in english) and finding the original manuals for the MS-10 can be a bit scetchy as you can see from my earlier post on suggested settings.

Why I started this thread in the first place was hopefully to get some setting ideas placed here for the rest of us to try.

We finally got one good tip here from XMLguy about using the release feature. Re-read tips like his and other as well as post more of your finding here. Like I said before one little setting elsewhere in the chain could through your whole sound off...small increments guys/gals on turn those little digital knobs

Also don't give up on getting that perfect bass sound on this thing, it's there...I've heard it from other users (look at my youtube and vemio examples), I've almost got the right sound and will post some of my settings shortly.

Best of luck to all of you.

Etherium · Post by **Etherium** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:13 am

well, I haven't quite read everyones comments here, but I've had it about 3 weeks and its only really in this last wek that I've sat down and really nutted it out and programmed a tune, My main beef with it at this stage is like someone else said...functionality....would of liked a copy button at the top of each page that I just could of tapped then tapped something else and those individual settings would be copyed...this would save me from copying the whole pattern then going back and changing bits and pieces here and there...sometimes this is uber frustrating....I'm quite happy with the sounds, I think most of this comes down to programming the thing properly, though more attention to the effects woulda been appreciated. All things considered though, this is on a nintendo ds...so I'm not exactly sure what the processor is capable of.....but at the moment I'm seriously considering buying another one, and link them up. I spose I'll dedicate one for drums and bassline and effects such as white noise sweeps (which I haven't quite done yet), and the other for just synths and the drum section for arp sequences.....which I assume will isolate the effects better for there elements..?, I gotta say though...it is totaly addictive...!!, and I'm curious to see what the devolopers will do when the new more powerfull DS will come out..?, like I said functionality, and effects are my main beef.....maybe a dedicated edit mode that has certain copy functions etc. avalable at hand with appropriate sub-menus...and a dedicated performance mode....But anyway there's my 5 cents worth....Thanks

Etherium · Post by **Etherium** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:29 am

Ok, so I see that theres a few of you's out there that find the copy function frustrating.....Oh and how could I not mention this before, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO SEQUENCE LONGER PATTERNS!!..."128", would be good, same as me electribes....I think the second incantation of this product is gonna be quite cool, alot of this has probably been the devolopers "testing the waters" so to speak, but portable handheld music apps are gaining momentum at the moment what with the Iphone and certain homebrew apps for the PSP and also the odd PDA....but yeh, realising that theres an economic crisis around the world at the moment, it would be good to see the developers come back with something better...!!

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:58 pm

I agree that the patterns are much too short. Having more copying with the ability to transpose notes would help a lot. Arpeggiator patterns would make the Kaoss functions better too.

I think the EMX-1 + ESX-1 + Kaossilator could be combined into a single product that would be the bomb. The DS-10 gives a taste of what that could be, but I don't think the DS is the right platfrom to do it. The audio output just isn't good enough to rock the drums in the low bass/sub range. The DS-10 algorithms also have a lot of artifacts that add noise and distortion in undesireable places, like when trying to get a sharp, clean kick drum.

What I like the most about the DS-10 is the Kaoss function is better than the Kaossilator in many respects. For me, the biggest advantage is having two fully editable dual OSC synth patches active at the same time, with the easy way to change the Key and Scale using the patterns.

What I REALLY need is this kind of Kaoss/Kaossilator synth function on something that has midi!!!! All this great capability doesn't work very well between gear without midi synch. Synchronizing multiple DS-10s is cute, but I need to sync it with everything else I have!! I can't give up the pro quality drum sounds of the EMX, KP3, and my samplers & workstations just to get Kaoss synths. It's all very promising for the future, but it isn't there yet.

Etherium · Post by **Etherium** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:51 am

yeh, well to be honest its just a cute lil toy, but aye I'm lovin it at the moment...The last 4 days has seen me carrying the DS with me wherever I go...a when bored just sitting there working on tune....your right about the artifacts though you especially notice when things are at there very minimum...so I've learnt to just keep all channels cranking and its less noticable...evan so, I'm just gonna look around and find a cheap second hand DS and try and link things up....I spose it would be good to talk to my other gear via midi....but hey, I guess at this stage.... this is as good as it gets...The concept of all of this is great though, but Imagine if it was a handheld device similar to the DS but multitouch widescreen no buttons just touch, onboard DSP, and a lil fierwire port....drool...!!, LOL

SMK · Post by **SMK** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:15 pm

I'm predicting that Korg is planing to come out with a completely touchscreen/kaoss based synth/sampler. Think Triton Extreme but with out keys just kaoss pads that are touch based like on the DS. The DS-10 seems to be the cheapest way to test market a product like this to see how many of us would want such a larger tool. Could you see your self getting a Kaoss pad for $600 or more dollars? That's about how much ot would cost to do something like this.

This new KP4 I see will have it all:
Kaosilator
Kaoss pad 3
Korg DS-10

I envision a machine that would be a dual screen, one for touch and one for visual stacked like the DSlite. sd slots, usb to transfer/store samples/waves, a much more robust synth (well beyond an MS-10) multi-effect prossesor, step sequencer (hopefully more than 128 steps),
midi in out and thru, 1/4 inputs 1/4 out puts 1/4 loop (gone are the days of RCA).

Yep I can see this happening. and it seems all of these little products are just test toys (kaossilator, DS-10, mini KP) for a bigger more expensive package.

Etherium · Post by **Etherium** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:52 am

yeh, these are my thoughts exactly..!!, though they wanna get things right this time first before they start releasing things to the public....the zero 8 suddenly comes to mind.....like u said no rca....just a firewire port...onboard DSP.....all that aside though, wouldn't it be good if some type open source platform l (ike the "monome") as were talking about was available like I said with DSP's etc. that all different devolopers could right plugins for that run on it u could chain them all together just like the DS....Hmm, just a thought ..?

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:27 pm

It seems the ds-10 is selling quite well. It's sold out on amazon.co.uk at the moment. This is really good news, as it may inspire Korg/Aqi to do other synths like it.
I still haven't got mine yet.