KP3 Sync Failure
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:36 pm
This is half plea for help and half rant. I've had a KP3 since 2008 and am about to ditch it. I've had it up to here.
The problem is that it doesn't sync when used as a MIDI slave. It runs faster than the MIDI master clock, and I proved it with a simple experiment.
My bandmate also has a KP3. We use his as a master clock for all our gear. We're both running version 2.0 of the KP3 operating system. His MIDI out runs to my MIDI in. I confirmed that changing tempo on his changed tempo on mine. So far so good. I sampled a 1-bar click on his and let it loop, then went to mine and did the same. I used a lower pitched click on mine so I could tell them apart. They were hitting on quarter notes at exactly the same time
I set a timer and listened.
At 5 minutes, my KP3 drifted to a 16th note ahead of his.
At 10 minutes, they were an 8th note off (together they played a straight 8th note pattern)
Folks, this is unacceptable. We play hour-long sets of electronic improv, with plenty of loops, plenty of grooves. Thanks to the KP3, we're guaranteed to train wreck after just a few minutes.
Some people recommend using Align for this, but this is impractical once you get multiple loops going. For instance, suppose I sample something on A, then a few minutes later sample something on B. By that time, A has already drifted. If I try aligning to his I'm either going to align A or B but not both. Things get more complicated over a wider span of time and with more samples. To use Align effectively, I'd have to a) have a solid beat from him to easily detect his "one" at any moment, which is unlikely since we often go ambient, and b) I'd have to Align perfectly before creating a new sample, each and every time.
Folks, the WHOLE POINT of MIDI sync is to not have to do this kid of bull$#!+! These things are MACHINES. If I sync them, they should stay in lockstep. Forever. Period.
I've heard a rumor that the reason this happens is that the KP3 master is not sending a MIDI Start message at the beginning of each bar. But I get the SAME DRIFT when using an old Korg ER-1 (mark I) as a master clock. So maybe my slave KP3 just isn't listening closely. Either way, this seems like a software thing that could be fixed with a new OS patch. Yet a 2.1 or 3.0 patch seems unlikely after so long. Korg has been too busy working on important new stuff, like the Pink Kaossilator.
Korg, how hard is it to implement the basic MIDI spec? Why do Korg boxes not work flawlessly with other Korg boxes?
I've read through the "new" features in 2.0 and none apply to this problem. It has nothing to do with how loops are triggered, nothing to do with the LOOP1-13 programs, and everything to do with keeping in time with a master clock.
I tried Auto BPM and that was a joke. It could follow a big steady beat but got lost on smaller, more complex beats and tempo changes. I had to turn Auto BPM off and on for it to pick up the change. Anyway, I have no intention of feeding beats to this thing all the time. Like I said, we don't always do beats.
So... barring a miracle like someone from Korg coming to the rescue (A HA HA HA!) or someone sharing a brilliant solution here, both of our KP3s are headed for Craigslist. The next candidate is the Electro-Harmonix 2880, which also has mixed reviews in this regard. If THAT fails, we'll have no choice but to go for the Echoplex Digital Pro (and mono, ugh, but well-sync'ed mono).
Now, I love me some Korg. I love the Kaossilator, the mini-KP, the microKORG, and the aforementioned ER-1. All great boxes. But the KP3.. man. It's is a TEMPO-BASED BOX, and yet it can't follow the tempo? That's like a car with intermittent steering, or a chair with only two legs. This box comes SO CLOSE to being ideal, yet FUNDAMENTALLY SCREWS THE POOCH for anyone with an external MIDI clock.
I want to love it. I really do. Is it too much to ask that it do what it advertises? I quote from the box, "MIDI In/Out, Tap-Tempo and accurate BPM sync keep your performance locked tight."
Help, please. I'd appreciate some commiseration if nothing else.
Oh, if anyone cares, we're at www.thecasualdistractions.com, where you'll find 50+ hours of unintentionally off-beat electronic nooding and counting.
Thanks,
JR
The problem is that it doesn't sync when used as a MIDI slave. It runs faster than the MIDI master clock, and I proved it with a simple experiment.
My bandmate also has a KP3. We use his as a master clock for all our gear. We're both running version 2.0 of the KP3 operating system. His MIDI out runs to my MIDI in. I confirmed that changing tempo on his changed tempo on mine. So far so good. I sampled a 1-bar click on his and let it loop, then went to mine and did the same. I used a lower pitched click on mine so I could tell them apart. They were hitting on quarter notes at exactly the same time
I set a timer and listened.
At 5 minutes, my KP3 drifted to a 16th note ahead of his.
At 10 minutes, they were an 8th note off (together they played a straight 8th note pattern)
Folks, this is unacceptable. We play hour-long sets of electronic improv, with plenty of loops, plenty of grooves. Thanks to the KP3, we're guaranteed to train wreck after just a few minutes.
Some people recommend using Align for this, but this is impractical once you get multiple loops going. For instance, suppose I sample something on A, then a few minutes later sample something on B. By that time, A has already drifted. If I try aligning to his I'm either going to align A or B but not both. Things get more complicated over a wider span of time and with more samples. To use Align effectively, I'd have to a) have a solid beat from him to easily detect his "one" at any moment, which is unlikely since we often go ambient, and b) I'd have to Align perfectly before creating a new sample, each and every time.
Folks, the WHOLE POINT of MIDI sync is to not have to do this kid of bull$#!+! These things are MACHINES. If I sync them, they should stay in lockstep. Forever. Period.
I've heard a rumor that the reason this happens is that the KP3 master is not sending a MIDI Start message at the beginning of each bar. But I get the SAME DRIFT when using an old Korg ER-1 (mark I) as a master clock. So maybe my slave KP3 just isn't listening closely. Either way, this seems like a software thing that could be fixed with a new OS patch. Yet a 2.1 or 3.0 patch seems unlikely after so long. Korg has been too busy working on important new stuff, like the Pink Kaossilator.
Korg, how hard is it to implement the basic MIDI spec? Why do Korg boxes not work flawlessly with other Korg boxes?
I've read through the "new" features in 2.0 and none apply to this problem. It has nothing to do with how loops are triggered, nothing to do with the LOOP1-13 programs, and everything to do with keeping in time with a master clock.
I tried Auto BPM and that was a joke. It could follow a big steady beat but got lost on smaller, more complex beats and tempo changes. I had to turn Auto BPM off and on for it to pick up the change. Anyway, I have no intention of feeding beats to this thing all the time. Like I said, we don't always do beats.
So... barring a miracle like someone from Korg coming to the rescue (A HA HA HA!) or someone sharing a brilliant solution here, both of our KP3s are headed for Craigslist. The next candidate is the Electro-Harmonix 2880, which also has mixed reviews in this regard. If THAT fails, we'll have no choice but to go for the Echoplex Digital Pro (and mono, ugh, but well-sync'ed mono).
Now, I love me some Korg. I love the Kaossilator, the mini-KP, the microKORG, and the aforementioned ER-1. All great boxes. But the KP3.. man. It's is a TEMPO-BASED BOX, and yet it can't follow the tempo? That's like a car with intermittent steering, or a chair with only two legs. This box comes SO CLOSE to being ideal, yet FUNDAMENTALLY SCREWS THE POOCH for anyone with an external MIDI clock.
I want to love it. I really do. Is it too much to ask that it do what it advertises? I quote from the box, "MIDI In/Out, Tap-Tempo and accurate BPM sync keep your performance locked tight."
Help, please. I'd appreciate some commiseration if nothing else.
Oh, if anyone cares, we're at www.thecasualdistractions.com, where you'll find 50+ hours of unintentionally off-beat electronic nooding and counting.
Thanks,
JR