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This is half plea for help and half rant. I've had a KP3 since 2008 and am about to ditch it. I've had it up to here.

The problem is that it doesn't sync when used as a MIDI slave. It runs faster than the MIDI master clock, and I proved it with a simple experiment.

My bandmate also has a KP3. We use his as a master clock for all our gear. We're both running version 2.0 of the KP3 operating system. His MIDI out runs to my MIDI in. I confirmed that changing tempo on his changed tempo on mine. So far so good. I sampled a 1-bar click on his and let it loop, then went to mine and did the same. I used a lower pitched click on mine so I could tell them apart. They were hitting on quarter notes at exactly the same time

I set a timer and listened.

At 5 minutes, my KP3 drifted to a 16th note ahead of his.

At 10 minutes, they were an 8th note off (together they played a straight 8th note pattern)

Folks, this is unacceptable. We play hour-long sets of electronic improv, with plenty of loops, plenty of grooves. Thanks to the KP3, we're guaranteed to train wreck after just a few minutes.

Some people recommend using Align for this, but this is impractical once you get multiple loops going. For instance, suppose I sample something on A, then a few minutes later sample something on B. By that time, A has already drifted. If I try aligning to his I'm either going to align A or B but not both. Things get more complicated over a wider span of time and with more samples. To use Align effectively, I'd have to a) have a solid beat from him to easily detect his "one" at any moment, which is unlikely since we often go ambient, and b) I'd have to Align perfectly before creating a new sample, each and every time.

Folks, the WHOLE POINT of MIDI sync is to not have to do this kid of bull$#!+! These things are MACHINES. If I sync them, they should stay in lockstep. Forever. Period.

I've heard a rumor that the reason this happens is that the KP3 master is not sending a MIDI Start message at the beginning of each bar. But I get the SAME DRIFT when using an old Korg ER-1 (mark I) as a master clock. So maybe my slave KP3 just isn't listening closely. Either way, this seems like a software thing that could be fixed with a new OS patch. Yet a 2.1 or 3.0 patch seems unlikely after so long. Korg has been too busy working on important new stuff, like the Pink Kaossilator.

Korg, how hard is it to implement the basic MIDI spec? Why do Korg boxes not work flawlessly with other Korg boxes?

I've read through the "new" features in 2.0 and none apply to this problem. It has nothing to do with how loops are triggered, nothing to do with the LOOP1-13 programs, and everything to do with keeping in time with a master clock.

I tried Auto BPM and that was a joke. It could follow a big steady beat but got lost on smaller, more complex beats and tempo changes. I had to turn Auto BPM off and on for it to pick up the change. Anyway, I have no intention of feeding beats to this thing all the time. Like I said, we don't always do beats.

So... barring a miracle like someone from Korg coming to the rescue (A HA HA HA!) or someone sharing a brilliant solution here, both of our KP3s are headed for Craigslist. The next candidate is the Electro-Harmonix 2880, which also has mixed reviews in this regard. If THAT fails, we'll have no choice but to go for the Echoplex Digital Pro (and mono, ugh, but well-sync'ed mono).

Now, I love me some Korg. I love the Kaossilator, the mini-KP, the microKORG, and the aforementioned ER-1. All great boxes. But the KP3.. man. It's is a TEMPO-BASED BOX, and yet it can't follow the tempo? That's like a car with intermittent steering, or a chair with only two legs. This box comes SO CLOSE to being ideal, yet FUNDAMENTALLY SCREWS THE POOCH for anyone with an external MIDI clock.

I want to love it. I really do. Is it too much to ask that it do what it advertises? I quote from the box, "MIDI In/Out, Tap-Tempo and accurate BPM sync keep your performance locked tight."

Help, please. I'd appreciate some commiseration if nothing else.

Oh, if anyone cares, we're at www.thecasualdistractions.com, where you'll find 50+ hours of unintentionally off-beat electronic nooding and counting.

Thanks,
JR

hey,
that´s a problem i fight with too. but try to sync via usb, for me it worked very well. the only thing is you must tap the 1 at kp3...

I'll buy one of your KP3 for $200.

The loop is not synced to midi AT ALL. Midi is used to set the BPM. The BPM is used to set the exact sample length for the number of bars you select. Then when you hit play - the sample is audio looped.

If you sample/resample different audio into the 4 different pads at the same BPM, they will keep in sync forever - WITHIN THE KP3. They are unsynced with the outside world.

I think the real problem is that you apparently don't know the difference between audio looping and midi looping. Buy the 2880 if you wish, but it won't work the way you expect either. That's because what you expect of audio looping seems to be the problem. Audio loopers are like a circular piece of magnetic tape. You can speed up or slow down the tape - but the machine doesn't really "know" what's on the tape or how to keep the recording in sync with anything else. Imagine that the tape is halfway in the middle of playing a huge bass whole note of the sample. What's it supposed to do if it gets a midi sync? Jump to the beginning of the loop? Speed up? Slow down? It doesn't even "know" what it's playing - it's just a stream of bits that are different than what came before and follows. All it can do is play the bits faster or slower based on what you tell it to do.

The KP3 can set the length of the loop based on what it receives via midi, or somewhat unreliably on what it "hears" with the AutoBPM function, but once the loop is running - the contents are not synced to anything but other loops inside the KP3. It's like having four loops of tape driven by a single motor - the tapes will keep in good physical sync - but the content will not be in sync unless they were recorded in sync too. The aligning functions only adjust the position of the tapes relative to each other, so that they will stay in sync if the contents are also in sync. (although some of the functions allow each tape to be start playing independent of each other).

Tape isn't a perfect analogy/metaphor, but it's the closest I can come up with. The KP3 doesn't really "know" the content of the sample at all. It does not slice up the samples and then trigger the samples with midi - that is midi looping. The KP3 slicing functions are just equally divided sections of the sample - regardless of the content.

To do what you want requires that you slice the samples and trigger them with midi. That will keep in perfect sync forever. The difference is that the individual samples are just small snippets that are played - and the contents of the samples themselves are not sync'ed to anything - they are over and done with in a fraction of a second. The music you hear when the snippets are repeatedly triggered using midi is in perfect sync, so long as the samples don't overlap each other if you increase the BPM. That is midi looping of audio samples. The KP3 doesn't do that. It does audio looping of audio samples. If you sample one-shots/slices onto the 4 pads, then you can midi loop them with another sequencer. That would be midi looping on an external sequencer of the KP3 audio samples.

It's a bitch I know. Surly Korg could fix this easy enough. Their silence is infuriating.

I have a work around that works ok for me - I use my Electribe ESX1 to trigger sampling and stop it before the loop completes. That means I get 1 shot samples not loops so I can trigger them with a note from my Electribe and they stay in time with it's clock.

You'd need a thru box (as the KP3 has no MIDI thru) but you could use your ER-1 to control both KP3s like this.

Been listening to 2009-07-22_01.mp3 as I wrote this. Nice stuff.

xmlguy wrote:I think the real problem is that you apparently don't know the difference between audio looping and midi looping.

Look, "audio looping" and "MIDI looping" aren't difficult concepts. I understand them. But nowhere does Korg make that distinction. I got this thing because of the claim it had "MIDI In/Out, Tap-Tempo and accurate BPM sync keep your performance locked tight," , which turned out to be false. The box doesn't say, "Warning: This is an audio looper, not a MIDI looper, and therefore will drift in certain circumstances!"

Why should we settle for inferior audio looping if MIDI looping does everything it does plus actually stay in sync?

Why should this digital, (ostensibly) MIDI-enabled box emulate an old analog tape machine, including its limitations? If that's the case, it's a failure of Korg's imagination.

Of what use is the External Clock function if it fails to keep in sync with anything external? If it's only sort-of-kind-of-close for a few minutes? Give me a break!

JR

eox wrote:hey,
that´s a problem i fight with too. but try to sync via usb, for me it worked very well. the only thing is you must tap the 1 at kp3...

Sync by USB how? You mean laptop -> KP3? Or do you mean KP3 -> KP3? Never heard of or even thought of that.

Thanks,
JR

yes. i use a laptop with ableton live and the kp is connected via usb to get the right clock...

Hi jrizzo, I'm not really defending why the KP3 is designed the way it is, only explaining how it works. I don't work for Korg. I own the KP3 and I use it and like it for what it does, more than for what it doesn't do.

The way you get audio loopers to work effectively is to use them as the only device to keep the loops playing. You only sync to external gear during the sample/resample operation, basically to "load" the sample to get it playing.

One way I use the KP3 sampling is inline as an effector. For example, it works great to loop the EMX. I start building the song with the EMX and the KP3 just passing through the audio or doing EFX. Then I sample on the KP3 when I get a layer of the beat I want to loop, then when the loop is going, I can stop the EMX or change the pattern, while keeping the music going. Then I slice/dice/efx it on the KP3. Then I go back to the EMX to build another layer or to transition to a different beat.

I'm not trying to convince you that the KP3 sampling should be able to work for you. The ESX is probably more suitable for you, or Ableton Live, Maschine, MPC, or anything else that does midi loops. Or perhaps one of the sampling DJ mixers will work for you like the Pioneer DJM-400, Behringer DDM4000, or Numark 5000FX.

xmlguy : your 2 posts here are spot on... great way to describe the looping capabilities... props.








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Thanks for the props, radiatesky!

Just a follow up. Loop Type 3 is a workaround. In case someone's reading this who isn't familiar with that (I wasn't until recently), check out the documentation that comes with version 2.0 of the KP3 operating system (available from Korg at http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=269).

In this mode, triggering A starts the loop from the beginning regardless of where in the bar I press it. It'll still drift, so it's not perfect, but as long as the loop's not on for too long it isn't a problem. I have the control to sync, at least for a while, which is all good. I'd rather drive than fly if given a choice.

I still think the Kp3 could and should do more sync-wise and that Korg missed an opportunity, but at least I can still use the thing.

Thanks, xmlguy and everyone for your feedback. Good thread.

I have also been struggling with this problem ever since I got my kp3- when synced to run as slave off of my mc-909's clock, the kp3 always seems to play the first 8bars of samples fine then after that it subsequently speeds up .10 bpm. This pretty much takes away 50% or more of what you're supposed to be able to do with the KP3 sampler, because how in the world can you rely on it if the samples you record only play in sync for the first 8 measures? You mean I can't actually use my kp3 reliably for sampling and resampling? What a major dissapointment! Up until now, I used the kp3 strictly as an effects processor.

Reading the owners manual, I saw that it says that if the kp3 is connected with both standard midi cable and usb, the usb connection always takes precedent over the standard midi cable.

Then, After looking at this forum topic, I saw that eox said that syncing it via usb fixed this issue. So I added the "KP3 sound" option to the list of midi outputs on Sonar, and bam, it worked like a charm! now I can sync via midi and not have to fuss with manualy adjusting bpm. Unfortunately, the KP3 does not recognize start / stop transport functions from external devices, so I still have to align it manually. Since it syncs perfectly though, I only have to align it once, and it stays in sync.

Now, since this problem is fixed, I can reliably go to the KP3 on the fly as a sampler and not have to worry about it messing everything up by spitting samples back out at the wrong bpm. I am thrilled that I have overcome this issue, because having these sampling features in working order opens up more creativity and I don't have to rely only on my MC-909 for sampling.

the KP3 doesnt understant MIDI start, which is a HUGE overlook by korg that should have been fixed in V2.0 but wasnt for some lame reason, and knowing korg, they will sell us a kaoss pad 4 instead of giving us a OS3.0 update to fix this issue and the others (changing tempo ahnages pitch, how lame is that for 2009?)

given that the kp3 was not made in 2009, i don't see your point.
what piece of hardware do you have that has pitch accurate tempo shifting just out of curiosity? and was it developed at the same time as the kp3?