What external sequencer to use

elfrabo · Post by **elfrabo** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:54 pm

Long time since I've been here. Was very busy with my work. Next two weeks I am at home and have time to experiment with software on my new laptop.

I need some advice from you. I think I want to use an external sequencer but I never used one before. I have three questions:

1. What external sequencer would you recommend me and why?
2. What differences, if any, are you experiencing in your songs using an external sequencer compared to using the internal sequencer?
3. How difficult is it to set up and use the external sequencer?

A bonus question: When browsing this forum I stumbled across Synful. Very impressing sound. I get the impression it's not creating this sound in realtime or is it? Is it possible to use it directly connected to the Oasys without any other software?

Thanks for your time,
Frank

SCHWEATS · Post by **SCHWEATS** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:58 am

You need to investigate a little more to determine a proper answer.
In no partiicular order, here's things to ponder…
What kind of sequencing would like to do ? With a stand alone hardware
machine e.g, Akai MPC or a software application running on a computer ?
If with a software app on a computer, do you have a midi and/or audio interface ? or a combo interface … on a Windows based app or a Macintosh computer ?
What style of music are you interested in making ?
Midi only or with some audio capabilities ?

What is your budget ? This will probably determine where you will start in the ocean of sequencers available.

HTH - Schweats

elfrabo · Post by **elfrabo** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:51 am

SCHWEATS wrote:You need to investigate a little more to determine a proper answer.

But what to include if you don't have the experience? Your questions are helping me already.

SCHWEATS wrote: What kind of sequencing would like to do ? With a stand alone hardware
machine e.g, Akai MPC or a software application running on a computer ?

I was thinking of running software on a PC. What would be the benefits of stand alone hardware opposed to software?

SCHWEATS wrote: If with a software app on a computer, do you have a midi and/or audio interface ? or a combo interface … on a Windows based app or a Macintosh computer ?

I don't have a special midi and/or audio interface on my PC. Is a connection with USB possible?

SCHWEATS wrote: What style of music are you interested in making ?
Midi only or with some audio capabilities ?

I like all sorts of music, no special style. What audio capabilities would be possible?

SCHWEATS wrote: What is your budget ? This will probably determine where you will start in the ocean of sequencers available.

No budget restraint, I want to know what your experiences are. What external sequencer are you using and why would you recommend that sequencer.

Cheers,
Frank

iksrazal · Post by **iksrazal** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:10 pm

elfrabo wrote: No budget restraint, I want to know what your experiences are. What external sequencer are you using and why would you recommend that sequencer.

Cheers,
Frank

I went with a GenoQs Octopus, which is expensive but arguably the best sequencer currently available, like the O is for workstations. Why? Because the other hardware contenders, like the elektrons, spectralis and the MV 8800 / MPC xxxx have their own groovebox type of sounds which get dated quickly. The Octopus is imho something you do once and for all to settle the sequencer question for a lifetime. A GenoQs neko is the same idea as the Octopus, but has less features.

I personally don't like PC / Mac based plugin sequencers or soft synths. They may be popular, but lots of people don't like them. I also don't like the endless upgrade path. I just like turning knobs on hardware better for my workflow. I also do lots of software programming professionally and don't like spending my free time on computers.

I recommend doing lots of googling and youtube watching to make up your own mind.

SCHWEATS · Post by **SCHWEATS** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:12 am

Hardware benefits … no need for a midi interface
Hardware shortcomings : infinitely less editing capabilities
e.g. large chunks of sections of data (music) can be copied/pasted, manipulated, incredibly fast or extremely small things like change all kick drums from one note to another - only - without disturbing anything else that might be in a track with the kick drums.

… and all done via a screen so you can see what it is that you're manipulating
along with hearing it and even with laptops, you can connect those machines to large LCD TV panels with HDMI connectors if the 15" or 17" screen is too small. YOu can use a computer for many other things , whereas , a hardware sequencer does only what it does.

… via USB ? to my knowledge , no ! The USB connectors only have the ability
to transfer data for storage and from what I've read there is no plans for any
expanded capability of the USB ports.

Audio… You can record audio into tracks into a computer just like a multi-track tape deck from the last century (ha ha) Connect microphone or guitars/keyboards into an audio interface connected to the PC. … and edit and manipulate and mix ad infinitum

I am a 20 + year user of Mark of the Unicorn's Digital Performer and I know it intimately. I began 'sequencing' when Midi was created in the early 1980's
with Oberheim dedicated drum machine and sequencer. Then in 1989, I bought my 1st Macintosh computer and I would never go back to a dedicated hardware piece. There are plenty of folks making all kinds of great music using dedicated hardware… that method is just not for me any longer.
There are a number of other equally full-featured computer sequencer /DAW applications … It is simply what you like to look at for hours at a time , what suits your work style allowing you to complete you tasks at hand. There is a learning curve with all of them… There are factory and 3rd party video tutorials for all of them. Digital Performer has a massive
forum with extremely helpful people discussing all things DP at
www.motunation.com
I can't think of much else at the moment HTH - Schweats

elfrabo · Post by **elfrabo** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:03 am

iksrazal wrote:I went with a GenoQs Octopus, which is expensive but arguably the best sequencer currently available, like the O is for workstations. .

Thanks for this tip, GenoQs Octopus looks very promissing. They have a very different approach to sequencing than all the PC/Mac sequencers. I'm reading the user manual right now and I like very much what I'm reading.

elfrabo · Post by **elfrabo** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:07 am

SCHWEATS wrote:I am a 20 + year user of Mark of the Unicorn's Digital Performer and I know it intimately.

Thanks, I will look into Digital Performer for sure.

nytcrawlr · Post by **nytcrawlr** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:32 pm

I must also second the Genoqs Octopus simply because it is the ultimate external hardware sequencer imho. I also work with computers all day so the last thing I want is to be tied to one when I'm not working. Besides that though, it is very intuitive once you learn it and fast. Plus sequences can always be recorded as midi into a DAW from the Octopus later on for any fine tuning.

It is expensive though unfortunately. I bought mine used on eBay this past summer (Black Sea Octopus) for a reasonable price though, and the Nemo can be found for a decent price on the Bay also when posted up used.

Anashwaran · Post by **Anashwaran** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:49 pm

When you buy today a soundcard or an Audio-interface for your PC you get normally a lot of LE-software with it like Cubase LE, Sonar or Live LE with wich you can exercise and try to get used to this kind of work before buying big DAWs. I can also recommend Reaper software, which is 3 weeks free and costs only 60.-€ after and is very performing. You can have also quite good soundcards from EMU , M-Audio and MOTU and all indications of how to use external sequencers you can find in the Korg Karma-Lab forums. The websites are easily found by Google.
Good luck
Anashwaran

minnkorg · Post by **minnkorg** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:08 am

Sorry to be the sceptic here but this thread looks like a plant from the Genoqs sales dept.

For serious sequencing and recording this will fall short.
If you are a beat maker and can do with 32 steps this is wonderful.

For complete songs that has sections that are sometimes repeated, different tempos and or meters in addition to analog recording get your self Logic pro running on a mac.

Solely for using it as a step sequencer for midi seems there are better ways out there.

nytcrawlr · Post by **nytcrawlr** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:13 am

Just expressing my approval of the Octopus as I also own one. Definitely not limited to 32 steps though, and it's very simple to break songs into intro, chorus, etc. It's very intuitive once you learn how to use it, and you can do realtime recording from another midi device into it to record live play. Of course you'll need software to record your mix, but I love working with MIDI on the Octopus.

I love it and have much more fun sequencing on it then I ever did on my PC. It's very expensive though, and not an option for many; a traditional computer DAW setup with Logic or Ableton makes much more practical sense, I'll agree with that (I'm not practical at all though

). Read up on the Octopus, not limited at all in the ways you noted, but it has a learning curve in the beginning.

mdh · Post by **mdh** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:25 am

elfrabo wrote: I don't have a special midi and/or audio interface on my PC. Is a connection with USB possible?

You can get a USB-based midi breakout box, various manufacturers make them (mine is a cheapy edirol - if I can mention that brand here

and the bonus of this is that usually, they come with the cutdown cheapy version of some DAW software (mine had the cut-down version of Sonar). You'll want the box anyway in order to hook your PC into your midi-enabled equipment, so you kill two birds with one stone. If whatever comes with it doesn't suit you, you know not to buy the complete version of that one. There's hundreds of these DAW applications out there, you're just going to have to try them all. Sometimes you local music shop will be able to demo them to you and let you play around so you can try before you buy.

HTH

Tiger789 · Post by **Tiger789** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:27 pm

Hi,

I guess there are not only "one" right solution out there to handle all your midigear but here is what I do and it is very easy to set up and works perfectly without complicated midi settings. Plus it even synchronizes my multitrack recorder with all my keyboards/drum machine as well:

The Fantom G can record 152 miditracks incl. 24 audiotracks. There is an 16 channel mikser for the internal sounds and another 16 ch. mikser for "external" midi sources. In addition there are two separate 16 ch. miksers for the two internal exp. cards and finally a 24 track mikser for the internal audio tracks.

Besides recording internal sounds and audiotracks to the seq. like normal, I have connected both the Oasys, DR-880, the Clavinova and synched my 24 multitrack recorder via a "midi thru box" to the Fantom G's midi out. And here comes the "beauty" part. The Oasys has 10 outs, that is 8 separate outs + L/R stereo. Now, since a nice combi usually don't consists of more than up to 8 timbres anyway, I have set the first 8 timbres to midi "Gch" which means ch. 1 by default in the midi "global" mode. That way I can both manually trigger/play and record all 8 timbres via the Fantom's sequenser with the midi track set to external ch. 1. For the remaining 8 timbres I just give them a midi ch. each (2-9) in the Fantom's ext. mikser and do the same with the timbres in the Oasys. Then I "route" these timbres to each of the 8 separate outs and connects both the stereo out and the 8 outs to the multitrack recorder. In other words, so far I have then used 9 of the 16 external mikser channels on the Fantom and I can easily adjust pan, volume and other midi messages to the Oasys from the Fantom. A tip here is to turn off midi "program change" in the external sequenser/synth or program you are using as you probably don't want the Oasys to switch combis by accident. Likewise, you can also turn this off in the Oasys midi global mode.

The combis I have made this way would of course not make sense for "normal" playing from the Oasys itself but is what I rather would call "recording" combis since the 8 separate timbres may contain different kinds of sounds and effects. I have therefore stored these "recording" PCG's separately on the HD for fast access.

The Fantom G has 4 outs and I can also choose to route some of the internal sounds or audiotracks trough these to the multitrack rec. The DR-880 is given midi ch. 10 from the Fantom's ext. mikser and the 4 outs from the 880 are then connected to the multitrack rec. The Clavinova has midi ch. 11 and are hooked up in stereo to the multitrack rec. Of course, for piano playing I prefer both the keyboard action and the sound from the Clavinova so I use a midi cable from this instrument to the Fantom's midi "In" and let the Fantom seq. record and play it back trough the Clavinova who again (as mentioned) are hooked up the multitrack rec. Btw, sometimes when I "trigger" the best combis in the Oasys together with the Clavinova from the Fantom's own keys, I am thinking to myself, Geez.. what if people only saw the Fantom and not the rest

A midi cable goes from the midi thru box to the multitrack recorder who is synchronized and receives MTC (midi time code) from the Fantom seq. Now, although I can "only" record 16 tracks at once and then have to lay down 8 more later if needed, it doesn't matter because with 24 tracks + 384 virtual and with all units synchronized I just hit "rewind" on the Fantom seq. and record the rest. Good thing about this is the total control and that you can hear pretty much everything before you even start the "final" recording. It gives you the chance to make some small adjustments here and there in forehand, like fine tuning the drums etc. And if you regret the choice of a particular instrument when you are almost done with the entire project, it's easy to re-record that track because of the synchronization. That goes for even the audiotracks that can be cut/pasted anywhere in the song as well.

I don't see how this could be that much better. Life is good

-Tiger

Guitarist / Classical pianist
Oslo, Norway
--------------------------------

Korg Oasys 88 + Karo Philh. Strings & Symph. Library/ Spectrasonics - Symphony of Voices
Roland Fantom G6 + ARX-01
Yamaha Clavinova CVP-309PE

Amps: Marshall 2205 + 2210 w/1960A cab. Marshall Mode Four + cab. 3 x Marshall SE-100.
Effects: Roland SDE-2500, 2 x Roland SBF-325, Alesis Midiverb II. DOD 250 & Cry baby 535. Pedaltrain 2 incl. Voodoo Lab PP2+ etc.
Guitars: 3 Fender Strats, 2 w/HS-3 & YJM pics. 1 Gibson Les Paul Standard 2008 desert burst. 1 nylon classical guitar
Wireless: Line 6 XDR95 & Relay G30 (digital units)
Recording: Roland VS-2480CD incl. MB-24 meterbridge, all 3. part plug-ins available, mouse, 22" widescreen, 160GB Backup system.
Monitors: Dynaudio Acoustics BM 6A Mk II. Samson Resolv 65a.
Mics: AKG C 3000B, Shure SM 58, AKG 240 headphones
Other: Boss DR-880, studioracks, patchbays, vintage effects from the 70's & 80's.