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I select "init" and then I make something like this:

http://www.wikiupload.com/I21XH43GXSK24EG audio
http://www.wikiupload.com/GS4WXA14H2KKZTW preset

what I want - make it "polished". More powerful and less noisy. Is it possible on R3?

ultravvox wrote:I select "init" and then I make something like this:

http://www.wikiupload.com/I21XH43GXSK24EG audio
http://www.wikiupload.com/GS4WXA14H2KKZTW preset

what I want - make it "polished". More powerful and less noisy. Is it possible on R3?

What does polished, more powerful, and less noisy mean to you? Do you have any examples of what you mean? You might as well say you want them more fruity, with a dash of sunshine, and a good measure of smoothiness.

You patch is just two saw waves with FX. You're not even using a small fraction of what the R3 can do.

Well, I think words "noisy" and "powerful" are pretty universal, eh?

Something like this:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/y6eohe

This is 4x2 saws, Chorus + St.Delay. No "supersaw" oscillators, no LFO, no EG, no drive, no modulation...

What "abilities" of R3 besides oscillators, unison and FX should I use to achieve that or similiar sound?

Well I think for a start you want a stronger attack portion of your sound for more 'power' as you put it. currently it sounds like you have a straight on/off organ-like envelope setting. I'd try setting the sustain level down slightly and adjust the 'decay' so that it is very low. Set attack to zero. Additionally you may want to mix in some of the 'punch' parameter.

You could get the sound to be even snappier by using the 'unison' mode on oscillator 1 so that the phase resets to zero each time. Just leave control 1 & 2 at zero, don't increase them because you don't actually want any of the oscillator detuning or starting with a different phase.

EG adjustments only "shape" sound and makes it more "clicky". I'm not about envelope, I'm about character of sound itself. Now it is thin and with distinct sawtooth "buzzing". I want "thick" and more clean. How to do that?

If I just decrease Cutoff or change filter slope, sound becomes just damped and not so expressive.

ultravvox wrote:Well, I think words "noisy" and "powerful" are pretty universal, eh?

The words are universal but the meaning is entirely subjective, thus they are pretty useless without additional information about what you mean when you use them in this context.

For example, noisy could refer to cacophony/discordant, overly loud, distortion, anything disagreable (those noisy kids), screamo, white noise, pink noise, odd harmonics, lots of upper harmonics, etc.

The patch you have has no noise (other than the normal low level noise floor). Sawtooth waves have lots of upper harmonics, both even and odd. So what you may perceive and describe as noise, isn't really noise.

Take a look at the frequency domain graph on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawtooth_wave

Using a low pass filter, you can cut off the harmonics until you convert that sawtooth into a sine wave. Or you can start with a sine waves and add more upper even harmonics with various techniques, such as distortion/overdrive with the waveshaper, or pulse-width modulation, or by mixing in some noise, or by using both filters in series with resonance to emphasize certain harmonics. Or you can start with a DWGS wave that has the harmonics close to what you want, the use the filters to emphasize the ones you want. For example, the DWGS endless wave has all octave harmonics.

The biggest difference between the mp3 you created with the example you posted seems to be the EG2 ADSR values. You have a longer release than the example. The example have notes that cutoff quickly, while it uses FX like delay and reverb to continue sounding the notes. In other words, the example is more staccato, while yours is more legato. Besides the envelope, you can also use a gating technique to produce a staccato effect by putting a Square Wave LFO on the AMP, synced to the BPM. Gates are more common when there is a pattern, like xoxoxxxo, which can be done with the R3 mod sequencer, 8 steps, 1/32 note step, and destination amp level.

Here's an example of gating done in Reason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yIGvuEHuE

A big difference between gating compared to using the arp and ADSR EG is how the notes are played. Gating produces the staccato effect on the notes that are being held on, while the arp/EG is turning the notes on individually and applying the envelope repeatedly.

The example also has mid-high frequencies emphasized. You can do that with a high pass filter to filter out low frequencies, or other filters with resonance on the high frequencies.

Thx, I'll try this

http://www.wikiupload.com/QX45WXUE24N7DFM preset
http://www.wikiupload.com/ZZTNC9CXJIZZQK0 sound

I'm completely confused by R3. It should be programmed the way no any other VA else, eh?

I just start with other preset, make my changes and suddenly it SCREAMS like I want. Some excessive high frequencies, but it's finally great. And it even doesn't use nor Unison Osc nor Chorus nor Ensemble!

I've checked this preset with R3 Editor, and there's nothing special. But it screams. And my previous one doesn't. I don't understand what's wrong when I make it from scratch.

ultravvox wrote: I'm completely confused by R3. It should be programmed the way no any other VA else, eh?

What? If you're saying the R3 should be programmed the same way as other synths, it can be... it has all the basics and more.

ultravvox wrote: I just start with other preset, make my changes and suddenly it SCREAMS like I want. Some excessive high frequencies, but it's finally great. And it even doesn't use nor Unison Osc nor Chorus nor Ensemble!

I've checked this preset with R3 Editor, and there's nothing special. But it screams. And my previous one doesn't. I don't understand what's wrong when I make it from scratch.

Tell me what preset it is, I'll tell you why it screams.

ultravvox wrote: I'm completely confused by R3. It should be programmed the way no any other VA else, eh?

I just start with other preset, make my changes and suddenly it SCREAMS like I want. Some excessive high frequencies, but it's finally great. And it even doesn't use nor Unison Osc nor Chorus nor Ensemble!

I've checked this preset with R3 Editor, and there's nothing special. But it screams. And my previous one doesn't. I don't understand what's wrong when I make it from scratch.

Yes, it should be programmed like any other VA synth. The problem is that you don't know how to program any other VA synth either. That's OK. You have to start learning sometime.

No, there IS something different about the programs that accounts for the difference you hear. You just don't know how to find the difference. If there was no difference, they would sound exactly the same.

How do I know this? Because I looked at both the programs you posted. I saw LOTS of differences. You can load any two programs side-by-side in the editor to compare them. Just be aware that there's up to 12 different windows for a single program. All it takes is one parameter to make a huge difference in the result you hear.

You also apparently missed or misunderstood my previous message where I said "The biggest difference between the mp3 you created with the example you posted seems to be the EG2 ADSR values. You have a longer release than the example. The example have notes that cutoff quickly, while it uses FX like delay and reverb to continue sounding the notes. In other words, the example is more staccato, while yours is more legato." You still have a long release on EG2. The Release on EG2 should be Zero, or close to it, to get the original sound. Having a Release larger than Zero allows the note to carry on after the key is released. That is a very serious problem for your program because you also have Unison set to the maximum value of 4, which limits your polyphony to a maximum of 2 notes at a time. But because you have an EG2 release of 56, and a lot of fast notes, then you are guaranteed to run out of notes (and they will get cutoff).

You've made a number of big mistakes here. UNISON IS FOR NEWBIES. It eats up your polyphony.

There are tons of ways to make the sound thicker without using wasting polyphony. You can use a rich DWGS wave on OSC1. You can use a detuned wave on OSC2. You can use the WaveShaper with SubOSC (acts as a 3rd OSC). You can use 2 filters in serial with resonance. You have two IFX for Ensemble and LCR Delay. You can do Reverb on MFX. You can use LFOs to modulate parameters like panning, filters, pitch, and waveshape. You've got a bunch of virtual patches. You've got a modulation sequencer. You've got formant motion. All of these make a thick sound without eating up polyphony.

As a general rule, keep Voice Assign to Poly and Unison to Off. You want to preserve all 8 notes of polyphony whenever possible.

xmlguy wrote: You've made a number of big mistakes here. UNISON IS FOR NEWBIES. It eats up your polyphony.

but if you're making something monophonic :-/

if it's mono stacking unison in addition to the other methods for unison sounds (oscillator unison, saw oscillator modulation, 2nd waveform detuned, chorus, etc.) you can make some pretty massive sounds

tpantano wrote:

xmlguy wrote: You've made a number of big mistakes here. UNISON IS FOR NEWBIES. It eats up your polyphony.

but if you're making something monophonic :-/

if it's mono stacking unison in addition to the other methods for unison sounds (oscillator unison, saw oscillator modulation, 2nd waveform detuned, chorus, etc.) you can make some pretty massive sounds

Mono1 and Mono2 have a lot of secondary effects that you may not be aware of. If you use Mono1, you'll find that the Envelopes aren't retriggered if the previous note hasn't been fully released before the new note is hit. If you use Mono2, you'll find that previous notes get cut off, causing clicks and terminating evelopes before they finish.

If you use Poly mode, you can still play notes one note at a time, but each note will get its own envelope and follow it through regardless of other notes. So the result still sounds monophonic because only one note is being triggered at a time, but more than one note might be playing at a time due to envelopes.

xmlguy wrote:

tpantano wrote:

xmlguy wrote: You've made a number of big mistakes here. UNISON IS FOR NEWBIES. It eats up your polyphony.

but if you're making something monophonic :-/

if it's mono stacking unison in addition to the other methods for unison sounds (oscillator unison, saw oscillator modulation, 2nd waveform detuned, chorus, etc.) you can make some pretty massive sounds

Mono1 and Mono2 have a lot of secondary effects that you may not be aware of. If you use Mono1, you'll find that the Envelopes aren't retriggered if the previous note hasn't been fully released before the new note is hit. If you use Mono2, you'll find that previous notes get cut off, causing clicks and terminating evelopes before they finish.

If you use Poly mode, you can still play notes one note at a time, but each note will get its own envelope and follow it through regardless of other notes. So the result still sounds monophonic because only one note is being triggered at a time, but more than one note might be playing at a time due to envelopes.

Very true, but I simply adjust my play/sequence style to Accommodate Mono1/2. Besides, in some patches I'm specifically after Mono 1's

Anyways here's a gigantic saw I just made that wouldn't be able to have poly since it uses two timbres and full on unison. If you can make something as large without them, you'll've convinced me to screw unison forever.

ultravvox wrote:I've checked this preset with R3 Editor, and there's nothing special. But it screams. And my previous one doesn't. I don't understand what's wrong when I make it from scratch.

No, there IS something special because it screams and yours doesn't

Go through it parameter by parameter and change the values and see how the sound changes.

Reverse engineering sounds you like but don't know how to reproduce is a good way to learn.

UNISON IS FOR NEWBIES because it seems so easy, yet by using it you will lose so much yet gains so little compared to other techniques.

For example, going to Unison 1 cuts your polyphony in half, from 8 notes to 4. Using a second timbre for a layer also cuts your polyphony in half. Guess which one has the best chance of increasing the complexity and richness of the sound? A second timbre, of course, because you have the full R3 timbre + mod sequencer + 2FX, all of which can be changed to be different than timbre1. Going to Unison 1 is just a little bit more of the same ole' sound.

Another way of looking at it is that using Unison wastes one half of the engine for much less benefit and all the cost of using a Layer.