Korg Forums

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:11 am**

Hi,

according to all updates and Kronos discussions I´m seriously thinking of not buying a hardware synth anymore but starting with softsynth etc to have a really open system. Of course Omnisphere seems to be an interesting product.
The problem I see is latency because I´m playing live. Until now I never thought of standing on stage with a notebook, but what was that game changing thing ?

So ...
1. Does anybody here has experience with using softsynths live?
2. Can you recommend a certain system - laptop/audiointerface/stand alone solution etc?
3. is there a possibility to use Oasys as interface in a live situation for tweaking sounds etc?

Thanks in advance
SoulBe

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:34 am**

SoulBe wrote:Hi,
according to all updates and Kronos discussions I´m seriously thinking of not buying a hardware synth anymore but starting with softsynth etc to have a really open system. Of course Omnisphere seems to be an interesting product.
The problem I see is latency because I´m playing live. Until now I never thought of standing on stage with a notebook, but what was that game changing thing ?
So ...
1. Does anybody here has experience with using softsynths live?
2. Can you recommend a certain system - laptop/audiointerface/stand alone solution etc?
3. is there a possibility to use Oasys as interface in a live situation for tweaking sounds etc?

OK, I can offer some input here.

Latency isn't a problem at all, IF you know how to set up your system. By that, I _seriously_ suggest that you get in touch with some serious hardware guru that can help you out with "laying down the components", just as you "lay down the sounds". I will gladly give you some insight into this right now.

First thing - you need to have a stable system that's always working, and one that's really fast. That doesn't mean "general investing", that means investing smartly into things that will bring you value. In terms of VSTi live playing, those things are - motherboard and cpu, memory, and a good sound card. And SSD, if you're using a lot of streaming, and as a general "speedup" tool.

Here's a hardware input - I would use either Core i5 or Core i7 system. Doesn't have to be the most expensive one from either generations. Generally they really offer a lot of performance with a lot of memory bandwidth, which means they'll manage your setlists with ease. Personally, I have a Core i7 875K-based live system in 1U case, and a backup system that's in an Aopen S152 case but in a more "mobile" fashion - it has Jetway's mobile-on-desktop motherboard, a Q9000 CPU, 4GB of memory as a base. This is the more expensive way and I wouldn't recommend it - it's "old" (based on older generation components), but as a backup system that's in a 20x30x10 box, it's great.

I have this system in a rack that has some other stuff inside - Triton Rack, Trinity Rack, and RME Fireface 400 card.

In terms of motherboards, my huge recommendation goes to Gigabyte motherboards as I've tested dozens of them and I'm yet to find better mobos in terms of performance and stability. They're feature-packed, super-stable and work great with Win7 and Hackintosh, should you ever choose to go that way, and you just might. You'll find out yourself.

Make absolutely sure that you use a good soundcard with low latency. Quite a few friends have some E-mu cards that work really well in this kind of setup and Windows 7. I prefer going RME way because it's rock solid, low latency, firewire and - I've been using them for years and years and am yet to find a flaw in them.

If you're gonna use a lot of streaming, I'd go SSD way for sure. They make your life a hell of a lot easier in a lot of ways that are beyond just "they don't have mechanical parts" thing. Live playing is usually loud, and that leaves a lot of room for mechanical drives to fail due to vibrations. If you're using streaming only, then a dual-core CPU will be more then enough. If you're gonna use a lot of softsynths, then you'll need CPU power. Better have CPU power to spare, then to miss 1% of it.

Omnisphere for example works great on my MacBook Pro with C2D 2.4. I can layer 3-4 more softsynths beside that in a single patch. But that's awfully close to the limit, especially if you play around with effects. So, if you're gonna do a lot of softsynths, go with a quad core. Better with native quad-core with no Hyperthreading then dualcore with Hyperthreading, always keep that in mind. 4-6GB of memory is a minimum, 8-12 optimum, 16-24 over-the-top enough (depending on whether you're using a dual-channel Core CPU or a triple-channel one).

OK, enough of the hardware. If you need more input, PM me, we can discuss more.

It's absolutely possible to use OASYS as a controller for external softsynths, yes. But you'll need to do quite a lot of mapping. I'd seriously suggest getting another controller - I find Kontrol 49 to be perfect type of product for that - to make your life easier. You could go with Nano series as well, if you need some control only.

BTW, Omnisphere sounds really good and has quite an array of useable sounds. Arturia, little less so. Korg's Legacy, a lot. First make a list of VST's that you'd like to use, then design a system for it. Don't go the other way around.

In terms of software for hosting your VSTi's, I'd suggest Brainspawn forte or Cantabile for Windows, and Mainstage for OS X if you're gonna go the Mac way. I tried working with all three of them and Prefer Cantablie to Forte with Windows (64-bit version and a lot of small bits and pieces suit me better), and overall I prefer using Mainstage as it's just superb and extremely simple to use. Also, Mainstage and Cantabile have 64-bit versions, while Forte doesn't. It might mean something to you in various situations. Be careful with these things and check if your plugins have native 64-bit support. If not, you might (I didn't say you will) have a problem at times.

Hope this helps.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:50 am**

Hi vEddY,

thanks a lot for that input. I sure will rely on your offer via pm. As far as I´m beginning to think of how to configure/develop a system your post helps me a lot.

best regards
SoulBe

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:00 am**

Hm ... I admire people daring to do that. My personal conclusion is that softsynths are fine for a studio-environment. And I doubt I will ever spend so much money again on a hardware synth like I did spend on the Oasys. It's more likely I'll switch to software synths and samplers - in my stuido! But on stage ... I dont know. I still feel more comfortable with hardware synths. Kronos seems a nice choice for that.

I haven't taken a computer on stage for years. But I've played around with Apples Mainstage - both for Guitars and Keys. It seems to be a good program: stable and easy to handle, good overview of what's going on ... it was the first time I actually thought about what it would be like on stage. Hardwarewise I'd use Mac instead of Windows - it seems more reliable (although MS has improved a lot since XP).

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:37 am**

Charlie wrote: And I doubt I will ever spend so much money again on a hardware synth like I did spend on the Oasys. It's more likely I'll switch to software synths and samplers - in my stuido! But on stage ... I dont know.

Hi Charlie,

exactly how I thought until now .. I´m also "old school" and using a notebook on stage was not an option for me. But I doubt also spending so much money again like for OASYS and with OASYS I have a fine piece of hardware on stage and I thought it might be time to open the next chapter

. What will come after Kronos? In the german keyboards magazine they call it the "Übersynth" (btw in that preview article the OASYS is mentioned several times !!!) and Roland/Yamaha will sometimes react with another one but ...

I´m making up my mind and it seems that computer/softsynth systems are quite stable/reliable even on stage now and the relation beetween what you spend and what you get seems more fair to me, prices for computer hardware seem to fall constantly and softsynths can be combined from different companies.

best regards
SoulBe

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:59 am**

SoulBe wrote: exactly how I thought until now .. I´m also "old school" and using a notebook on stage was not an option for me. But I doubt also spending so much money again like for OASYS and with OASYS I have a fine piece of hardware on stage and I thought it might be time to open the next chapter
I´m making up my mind and it seems that computer/softsynth systems are quite stable/reliable even on stage now and the relation beetween what you spend and what you get seems more fair to me, prices for computer hardware seem to fall constantly and softsynths can be combined from different companies.

Here's the deal... I feel as though OASYS and Kronos are the... top of the line of the "old way of thinking". And in my search for "new ways of thinking", it's impossible not to go with VSTI's - at least without trying them out. Now, considering the fact that there's a whole bunch of really, really good VSTi's out there... I see no reason why you guys shouldn't make that a side-project to do on your spare time, try and test things out to hear how they sound.

Yesterday, I researched a bit more and with a recommendation from a forum member (thanks ED!), tried out Camel Audio's Alchemy. This thing is really mighty impressive. It's also a bit expensive ($249 plus additional libraries), but it sounds really good.

There are other VSTi's out there that are really worth the time and trouble. Some of NI's stuff is really good. Omnisphere and Trillian really kick ass. Some of the Eastwest stuff is awesome. Legacy has many great sounds, and Arturia's stuff has some, too.

To wrap this up, I think it's a good thing to play around with this and see if it can bring something new to your sonic pallette. And see if this brings up some new creative ways of expressing yourself through music. This was/is/will be the primary reason why I'm doing it in the past couple of years. And Mainstage helps a lot in that, too

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:38 pm**

Another downside of all these VSTIs for me is their "computer feeling". I really do like hardware controllers like we have on the Oasys. Of course one can get nice hardware controllers for DAWs/VSTIs too - but there is always the extra mile of configurating, updating, patching etc. until it really works ... and the next update might change that.

I use RMX a lot. Love its sound and functionality. Very clever time machine. And I know that other VSTIs offer similar comfort. But still ... it sometimes feels similar to writing a word-doc compared to intuitive knob-turning on the Oasys.

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:34 pm**

Beside a PC and Laptop Windows/DAW configuration I am also using an OpenLabs MiKo. With the MiKo everything becomes very, very easy and simple and it's just like "plug&play": Turn on the MiKo, install Omnsiphere and load it into your DAW and you can start immediately to play and mangle the astonishing and revolutionary Omnsiphere/Trilian sounds, which are impossible to produce for example on the Oasys.

And it's ultra simpel to allocate the virtual sliders and knobs from Omnsisphere to the hardware controllers of the MiKo and the Oasys: Just right-click the desired virtual knob, slider or switch on Omnisphere, choose "Midi Learn" and then just move the hardware slider, knob or switch that you prefer, either on the MiKo or on the Oasys. And with the MiKo and its touchscreen you have even the possibility to "touch" the virtual controllers of Omnsiphere and move theme intuitively on the screen, which works very fine. (Remember you cannot do this on Kronos/Oasys).

And the MiKo with its special "Windows Open Labs Edition" OP is absolutely stabil and reliable. I had never a crash in the last two years and the OpenLabs Windows/DAW configuration on the MiKo is, by my own experience, much more powerful than any other usual PC- or Laptop Windows/DAW configuration. And OpenLabs has built-in some additional pre-amplifiers, so you have a better output level, than from your usual external soundcard.

The MiKo is absolutely reliable on stage and never crashes, while I would never dare taking my Laptop on stage!

The MiKo transforms Omnisphere (and of course almost any other PlugIn) immediately into an exciting hardware instrument with the intuitive and haptic experience of a good old analogue synth...and you do not have to configure anything, except maybe for the MIDI channels on your additional external controller.

It makes a lot of fun ... and it's OPEN for the future!

-

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:58 pm**

Dany wrote: It makes a lot of fun ... and it's OPEN for the future!
-

Yeah, but any serious buyer would think twice before buying somethiing from OpenLabs now or in the near future. Purely objective reasons. Although I absolutely agree with everything else you wrote in terms of usage model. I would love to see more products like that on the market. And Liontracs' products look like they might do the trick very nicely. IMHO.

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:20 pm**

vEddY wrote:...I would love to see more products like that on the market...

I guess these two new products, which today are still some kind of toys, give us a strong hint to the direction and what we have to expect from future developments in the coming years:

http://www.akaipro.com/synthstation49

http://www.alesis.com/studiodock

-

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:55 pm**

Dany wrote:
vEddY wrote: I guess these two new products, which today are still some kind of toys, give us a strong hint to the direction and what we have to expect from future developments in the coming years:
http://www.akaipro.com/synthstation49
http://www.alesis.com/studiodock
-
Yep, I mentioned something like this in another thread, before NAMM. It's happening all right...

Posted: **Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:17 am**

Dany wrote:Beside a PC and Laptop Windows/DAW configuration I am also using an OpenLabs MiKo. With the MiKo everything becomes very, very easy and simple and it's just like "plug&play": Turn on the MiKo, install Omnsiphere and load it into your DAW and you can start immediately to play and mangle the astonishing and revolutionary Omnsiphere/Trilian sounds, which are impossible to produce for example on the Oasys.

And it's ultra simpel to allocate the virtual sliders and knobs from Omnsisphere to the hardware controllers of the MiKo and the Oasys: Just right-click the desired virtual knob, slider or switch on Omnisphere, choose "Midi Learn" and then just move the hardware slider, knob or switch that you prefer, either on the MiKo or on the Oasys. And with the MiKo and its touchscreen you have even the possibility to "touch" the virtual controllers of Omnsiphere and move theme intuitively on the screen, which works very fine. (Remember you cannot do this on Kronos/Oasys).

And the MiKo with its special "Windows Open Labs Edition" OP is absolutely stabil and reliable. I had never a crash in the last two years and the OpenLabs Windows/DAW configuration on the MiKo is, by my own experience, much more powerful than any other usual PC- or Laptop Windows/DAW configuration. And OpenLabs has built-in some additional pre-amplifiers, so you have a better output level, than from your usual external soundcard.

The MiKo is absolutely reliable on stage and never crashes, while I would never dare taking my Laptop on stage!

The MiKo transforms Omnisphere (and of course almost any other PlugIn) immediately into an exciting hardware instrument with the intuitive and haptic experience of a good old analogue synth...and you do not have to configure anything, except maybe for the MIDI channels on your additional external controller.

It makes a lot of fun ... and it's OPEN for the future!

-

Ditto. I have an Open Labs Timbaland Edition Neko that I just updated from Windows XP (Open Labs version) to Windows 7 64-bit plus 8GB of RAM. I love it. The system is rock solid. Plus, I can load huge samples from Omnisphere, Trillian, Stylus RMX and East West Play without the CPU giving me as much as a hiccup.

Yes, I realize that Open Labs had some challenges last year and all, as well as Victor starting a direct competitor company, Music Computing. However, I do still believe in the products and think that there is a place for what they have to offer. And yes, serious musicians are still buying Open Labs products. To put icing on the cake, the area that Open Labs really does shine is with technical support. They not only sell a great product, but an excellent customer experience...something that Mike Corley and staff strive for and what many of these other companies lack.

Between my Neko and my "obsolete" Oasys (ha, ha), I am good to go.

Posted: **Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:23 am**

Dany wrote:Beside a PC and Laptop Windows/DAW configuration I am also using an OpenLabs MiKo. With the MiKo everything becomes very, very easy and simple and it's just like "plug&play": Turn on the MiKo, install Omnsiphere and load it into your DAW and you can start immediately to play and mangle the astonishing and revolutionary Omnsiphere/Trilian sounds, which are impossible to produce for example on the Oasys.

And it's ultra simpel to allocate the virtual sliders and knobs from Omnsisphere to the hardware controllers of the MiKo and the Oasys: Just right-click the desired virtual knob, slider or switch on Omnisphere, choose "Midi Learn" and then just move the hardware slider, knob or switch that you prefer, either on the MiKo or on the Oasys. And with the MiKo and its touchscreen you have even the possibility to "touch" the virtual controllers of Omnsiphere and move theme intuitively on the screen, which works very fine. (Remember you cannot do this on Kronos/Oasys).

And the MiKo with its special "Windows Open Labs Edition" OP is absolutely stabil and reliable. I had never a crash in the last two years and the OpenLabs Windows/DAW configuration on the MiKo is, by my own experience, much more powerful than any other usual PC- or Laptop Windows/DAW configuration. And OpenLabs has built-in some additional pre-amplifiers, so you have a better output level, than from your usual external soundcard.

The MiKo is absolutely reliable on stage and never crashes, while I would never dare taking my Laptop on stage!

The MiKo transforms Omnisphere (and of course almost any other PlugIn) immediately into an exciting hardware instrument with the intuitive and haptic experience of a good old analogue synth...and you do not have to configure anything, except maybe for the MIDI channels on your additional external controller.

It makes a lot of fun ... and it's OPEN for the future!

-

Ditto. I have an Open Labs Timbaland Edition Neko that I just updated from Windows XP (Open Labs version) to Windows 7 64-bit plus 8GB of RAM. I love it. The system is rock solid. Plus, I can load huge samples from Omnisphere, Trillian, Stylus RMX and East West Play without the CPU giving me as much as a hiccup.

Yes, I realize that Open Labs had some challenges last year and all, as well as Victor starting a direct competitor company, Music Computing. However, I do still believe in the products and think that there is a place for what they have to offer. And yes, serious musicians are still buying Open Labs products. To put icing on the cake, the area that Open Labs really does shine is with technical support. They not only sell a great product, but an excellent customer experience...something that Mike Corley and staff strive for and what many of these other companies lack.

Between my Neko and my "obsolete" Oasys (ha, ha), I am good to go.

Posted: **Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:20 am**

Hi,

thanks for that further input.

But regarding "hardware" like Neko and Liontracks .... what about when the CPU power in one/two years is not enough? I mean the prices if you go with a comuter/notebook are not as high as a hardware solution. Or is Neko/liontracks expandable, exchanging motherboard/processors?

Regards
SoulBe

Posted: **Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:23 am**

I have the Lionstracs Mediastation and the OASYS. With the Mediastation I have the same type of interface you get on a normal workstation, but will all the benefits of it being a true open keyboard. So needless to say it's extremely productive and totally open ended. I've no time for messing around with PC type interfaces.

Love the product so much that I'm currently involved with Liosntracs on a new Rack that will be released at Messe. The Rack will have all the functions of their keyboards too.

Regards
Sharp.

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