Kronos Graphic Sequencer

[ScoobyDoo555]

I find most onboard sequencers vile and hateful experiences and always have done.

I only demo'd the Fantom G with a mouse, but I already knew that it was trying to act like a computer-based device.

I'll be happy if I can use the sequencer more like a notepad - which will be fab for rehearsals. Chuck it onto thumb drive afterwards. Job done for evaluation purposes.

When I want to sequence properly, I use Logic.

[jahrome]

Instruments such as the Korg M3 and Roland Fantom G have shown that a powerful hardware sequencer can be implemented.

You are kidding about the Roland Fantom G sequencer, right? I can list a number of design flaws with the Fantom-G sequencer....... For starter.... try editing more than one MIDI tracks at a time... or Try cutting a measure from track and paste it to another... Or try moving a song from one project to another.... Or try Making a copy of the song.... Or try auditioning different sounds with your tweaked PFX... or Try saving the effects as presets.... Granted the Fantom-G with it's 128 MIDI Tracks and dedicated external MIDI channels, is very powerful, but it's sequencer needs a LOT of improvement in Editing, Phrase, and Song management.

As a Fantom G owner...I simply hate its sequencer and the way Roland implemented the mouse. The Fantom G has/had so much potential..but after a 3 year wait for improvements, I have to move on.

By the way....I hope the next generation of work stations don't have stupid little messages (such as Are You Sure?) when you want to execute a specific function. When I want to do an edit (audio, midi, etc), I want that workstation to immediately execute the editing function I called upon. I don't need any warnings/messages asking me if I am sure. In this day/age, there should be some sort of undo/redo to modify the last edit.

[Shakil]

Jahrome,

Yes, I agree that Fantom-G sequencer needs improvement in Track editing, phrase and song management, BUT, it still is the most convenient hardware sequencer out there, specially for working with external MIDI channels. There is a LOT of potential.... If Roland just adds the missing editing functions and make the MIDI phrases standard MIDI files, like the audio tracks are standard wave/aiff files, and add song import/export with audio/midi tracks from DAWs... this thing will just be the hotest sequencer.

By the way....I hope the next generation of work stations don't have stupid little messages (such as Are You Sure?) when you want to execute a specific function. When I want to do an edit (audio, midi, etc), I want that workstation to immediately execute the editing function I called upon. I don't need any warnings/messages asking me if I am sure. In this day/age, there should be some sort of undo/redo to modify the last edit.

Are you sure?

[jimknopf]

If the Fantom G sequencer is the best out there, then how bad are the other ones??? I'm already beginning to fear what might come our way in the Kronos...

As you know, Shakil, I strongly dislike the G sequencer for many, many reasons, just like Jahrome. And I think there's not just some things to fix, but the whole concept would have to be rewritten completely to make more sense, as the phrase concept in it's present form is nothing but a big misconception IMHO. It is ok for recording a short idea sketch here and there from my view, put into fixed and unflexible phrase borders, with terrible editing and even more terrible phrase and song management facilities. It is ok for firing phrases during performances. But I have long stopped using it for ANYTHING else besides the two named small purposes, and would never use it for any serious song writing and arranging, not even in the early stages of a song.

I would just prefer any even basic linear sequencer with some decent recording and editing functionality on board over that one. It has driven me nuts more than once before I quit using it.

[Kevin Nolan]

Jahrome,

Yes, I agree that Fantom-G sequencer needs improvement in Track editing, phrase and song management, BUT, it still is the most convenient hardware sequencer out there, specially for working with external MIDI channels. There is a LOT of potential.... If Roland just adds the missing editing functions and make the MIDI phrases standard MIDI files, like the audio tracks are standard wave/aiff files, and add song import/export with audio/midi tracks from DAWs... this thing will just be the hotest sequencer.

By the way....I hope the next generation of work stations don't have stupid little messages (such as Are You Sure?) when you want to execute a specific function. When I want to do an edit (audio, midi, etc), I want that workstation to immediately execute the editing function I called upon. I don't need any warnings/messages asking me if I am sure. In this day/age, there should be some sort of undo/redo to modify the last edit.

Are you sure?

Out of curiosity - are you saying that the Fantom MIDI tracks cannot be stored as SMF and exported to a DAW?

Kevin

[Sina172]

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[Sina172]

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[jimknopf]

No wrong information please:
The Fantom G midi sequencer DOES export to SMF.

This basic functionality was missing in the beginning, and it lasted much too long, until an update fixed that (while leaving many, many other issues unfixed until today).

The first public OS version of the Fantom didn't even contain all the functions which were described in it's manual. I have rarely in my life seen such a halfbaked and - what I regard as much worse - never properly updated OS as in the Fantom G.

[jahrome]

Looking forward to picking up the Kronos whenever it hits the streets here in Japan.

Until that time...I am still using the Fantom G which is disappointing on so many levels.

1. While the sequencer show graphic representation of audio tracks, stereo tracks only display one channel.

2. You can't edit audio directly in the sequencer. It forces you to enter Edit Sample Mode to edit audio tracks. While in this mode, if you chop an audio track into 16 regions, it doesn't translate back to the sequencer. In other words, I would expect the sequencer to display 16 audio regions which I can move around or delete.

3. Fantom G has an "UNDO" function. But it is buried in the Main Menu and not Song Mode or Edit Sample Mode which isn't logical.

4. The Fantom G's mouse is poorly implemented. You cant use it to do much editing.

5. Scrolling through different patches effects the playing of a song.

Don't get me started talking about its file system which is the worst of any modern workstation I have used. The Fantom G can't browse a USB drive for wav files unless you place all the files in a single import folder. If you attempt to organize your files by placing them in multiple folders, the Fantom won't be able to read them......

So....I hope the Kronos doesn't have similar or other silly limitations.....

[Shakil]

jimknopf, actually the concept of Fantom-G sequencer is the same as on any DAW workstation. Phrase concept is GREAT!! But, they need to add functions for better management of phrases.

If you want a linear sequencer on Fantom-G, just work at a single Phrase level. Each Phrase in Fantom-G is a complete 16 track linear midi data. You can do all your editing, copying, pasting in single phrase.

The song can exported as MIDI, and the phrases can be exported as MIDI. But the SVQ format of the phrases is not standard MIDI, so I can not pick a phrase from the project and edit it on a DAW workstation, like I can do with the audio tracks.

[Shakil]

jahrome,

Yes the Fantom-G file system is the worst possible in a modern workstation.

So....I hope the Kronos doesn't have similar or other silly limitations.....

It (KRONOS sequencer) has more limitations. So be prepared.

[jimknopf]

Shakil, I won't step into a long thread about the different concepts of linear track based sequencing (with phrase management integrated into that in modern sequencers) over pure phrase based sequencing once more.

Just remember:
The latter has only one single strong side: you can be very repetitive very fast and convenient. Else it has only disadvantages, at least in the utterly immature form the Fantom G offes. A phrase as basic refeference e.g. forces you to copy it, before you can have a variation of it, so each change means a new reference in the pool, and you lose overview faster than you can compose. You can't edit anywhere locally on the fly like in a track concept, because you always have to be cautious about the reference you are actually working with.

Add the incredible weaknesses in the Fantom G of not being able to edit across phrase boundaries (which is a logical, inherent weakness of the phrase concept as long as it is not embedded into a smart overall linear struchture), and I for one evaluate this sequencer for these and other reasons as a DESASTER for my practical everyday use.

But, as I said, I am rather tired of discussing all this underdeveloped Fantom G stuff and want to leave it behind and not be bothered by it any longer in my life.
I just fell into the trap of remembering all my anger about this sequencer when you referred to it.
I'm aware that all hardware sequencers are basic: I will tell you if I get by better or worse, if I buy a Kronos.

Peace out

[hermanmusic]

I am very curious if the Kronos sequencer will support Midi Time Code and Midi Machine Control.

Midi clock is not always enough, especially when you have an Akai DPS24 that will not record Midi clock and then let you use it as a tempo track (like Korg's own D16XD and others).
MTC and/or MMC on Oasys would have been a great gift for me and allowed the Akai/Oasys to sync to each other in perfect harmony.

Here's hoping the new chapter called Kronos can at least update the game. Don't want to start a debate, but the Oasys sequencer was almost outdated when it was introduced (just my opinion) - so, why is it in Kronos?
I really want to want this workstation, but right now, I just don't feel it.

480PQN. Nice start.

Now: 32 Sequencer Tracks. The Drum Track feature from the M3. Piano Roll (I don't personally care about it, but many do.

C'mon, Korg, make me wanna sell something.

David -

[Sina172]

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[jahrome]

jahrome,

Yes the Fantom-G file system is the worst possible in a modern workstation.

So....I hope the Kronos doesn't have similar or other silly limitations.....

It (KRONOS sequencer) has more limitations. So be prepared.

More limitations? I guess I will never be completely satisfied.