Pianos don't sound as good in the mix as solo

Petekey · Post by **Petekey** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:52 am

So when I'm playing the Kronos ac pianos solo they sound great, but when I play them with a band they sound thin and don't seem to work as well. Has anyone experienced this or am I just crazy? Any ideas would be great.

I was previously playing Kurz PC2X.

Thanks,
Pete

PianoManChuck · Post by **PianoManChuck** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:03 am

When the pianos sound as real as acoustics, it needs to be mixed differently. Whoever does your mixing will need to account for this.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:07 am

Wow, what an advice.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:11 pm

This is a serious issue deserving a serious thread.

I am convinced that the Kronos EXis can sound fine and cut through in band context. But I have to admit that - with all the editable parameters at hand - I have difficluties to find the best edit for that purpose as well.

From my view it would really be fine if some Korg (or affiliate) professionals with a lot of experinece in this area would provide some patches thoroughly tested for exactly this purpose.

I like the new Kronos Pianos a lot for solo play and rehearsing at home, but I can't see that any of the present patches serves loud band context very well - with the double task of cutting thorugh and still not sounding too thin EQed.

If anybody of the users here has already achieved convincing results concerning this, it would be great to hear about it.

nitecrawler · Post by **nitecrawler** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:47 pm

jimknopf wrote:This is a serious issue deserving a serious thread.

I am convinced that the Kronos EXis can sound fine and cut through in band context. But I have to admit that - with all the editable parameters at hand - I have difficluties to find the best edit for that purpose as well.

From my view it would really be fine if some Korg (or affiliate) professionals with a lot of experinece in this area would provide some patches thoroughly tested for exactly this purpose.

I like the new Kronos Pianos a lot for solo play and rehearsing at home, but I can't see that any of the present patches serves loud band context very well - with the double task of cutting thorugh and still not sounding too thin EQed.

If anybody of the users here has already achieved convincing results concerning this, it would be great to hear about it.

Proper mix for acoustic piano in a "loud" band context can mean so many different things. Things like: where does the piano sit in the stereo field, what does the room acoustics have to add or detract, what are and where do the other instruments sit in the overall sound from low to high, are these factors consistent from one song to another, etc. Then if you can find an area where the piano can "sit", what sound do you want that piano to have and is it possible given all the other constraints. My thought is that acheiving an optimal sound to fit all those parameters is virtually impossible. You would need to consider many rather than a few patches. My 2 cents on this very interesting topic.

DennyC · Post by **DennyC** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:53 pm

It could be a very difficult problem indeed....especially the use of a sophisticated, articulate, delicate patch with a lot of nuances. The mix volume is huge, especially if it is out of your control. If it is piano sounds, I would choose a number of more cutting piano patches with less nuance and more drive, then insert them as back ups or alternates in your set list and when the band gets loud then choose one of them.

However, as "the piano man" has stated, if it is a mix guy who determines your mix, then it is up to him or her to make it work. I had many years of dealing with this kind of scenario. BTW, my K61 is still on back order. But, in general, I think you might find this helpful.

Denny C

Fred S · Post by **Fred S** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:18 pm

I've had my K88 for about a month now, but I'm still using my S90es for gigging. The "pianos in the mix" is what's holding the K back. I have tweaked S90es piano patches that work well in most all gigging environments. Most have come via dual patches in performance mode. It took a while to get there, and I'm sure I'll get there with the K as well...but not yet. We should work together and share what we come up with.

keyplayer14 · Post by **keyplayer14** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:28 pm

I think there are far too many potential variables to give a definitive answer here, and the key is to get something which "sits" in a mix and isn't battling other instruments for frequency space.
On several occasions I've ended up with piano sounds which are very strange
when played in a solo context, but they've sounded great when fitted in with the band. There's a lot of scope for experimentation here.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:29 pm

I don't know if you have a 'personal' mixer but my band regularly works with just the mixer which is available at the location and there are good and bad ones.

So you have to make sure your mix is good out of the keyboard and not rely on others. You might try to play with the equalizer settings to blend in more with the other band members.

Petekey · Post by **Petekey** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:16 pm

Thanks for all the thoughts. I've even noticed the piano not sitting right when just doing duo gigs also, where the Kronos is split with bass left hand/ ac piano right. I have to say I really dig the rhodes type pianos and I'm getting used to the organs, but its getting the pianos to sit right that is bumming me out.

At the end of the night I've felt like maybe the Kronos isn't all its hyped to be and I need to go a different route, but I know its a very deep instrument that I need to "learn" more before I give it up.

I just feel like the Kurz pianos always inspired me when playing with a band and the Kronos isn't doing that. It's confusing to me because I know the Kronos has a much moire realistic piano than the Kurz. I just need to tweak more I think.

Thanks

PianoManChuck · Post by **PianoManChuck** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm

There's way too many variables... what are you listening to the mix on? Are you using studio monitors to hear the recorded show, or are you talking live? If recorded, do the monitors have flat response? Do you have any EQ or effects anywhere in the mix? Is the Kronos recorded onto a track of its own or mixed in with other instruments? If live, that's a different story and it's the mix guy's responsibility to make it right... which might even include seperate amps/cabinets just for the Kronos. Tons more questions like this make it hard to diagnose/fix... which is why I was so vague in my first response.

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:33 pm

Try removing the reverb and any other effects. Dry piano will cut through and sit better in a live mix. Also try to EQ the piano so the mids don't get buried under guitars. And try to stay out of the bass player's range.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:49 pm

The "too many variables" argument is right and wrong at the same time.
- right, because there are many possible band contexts, one or more guitars, different bass characteristics, whatever.
- wrong, because there is a number of piano sounds out there which do this kind of job quite well. The S90 piano mentioned above is something I don't like too much as such, but it is well useable for this purpose according to many users. Or remember the older Kurzweil tradition of delivering exactly that.

So there IS some kind of basic, tested mixing charcteristics for loud band context out there, as least there are working examples.

I for one would like to see two or three patches working well (in this sense) on the Kronos. And I still think experienced specialists should design this kind of basic band piano sound, being useable in many loud contexts for us, while we can concentrate on some fine tuning for each band.

PianoManChuck · Post by **PianoManChuck** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:20 pm

jimknopf wrote:The "too many variables" argument is right and wrong at the same time.
- right, because there are many possible band contexts, one or more guitars, different bass characteristics, whatever.
- wrong, because there is a number of piano sounds out there which do this kind of job quite well. The S90 piano mentioned above is something I don't like too much as such, but it is well useable for this purpose according to many users. Or remember the older Kurzweil tradition of delivering exactly that.

So there IS some kind of basic, tested mixing charcteristics for loud band context out there, as least there are working examples.

I for one would like to see two or three patches working well (in this sense) on the Kronos. And I still think experienced specialists should design this kind of basic band piano sound, being useable in many loud contexts for us, while we can concentrate on some fine tuning for each band.

From your argument that their are pianos/patches that DO work in a live band... sure, I can see where my argument is "wrong". However, any instrument, no matter what - including ANY choice of piano sample - should be able to work in a live situation if you have a knowledgable mixing person and/or the equipment to make it happen, which may include separate amps/cabs. I used to bring my own keyboard amps (Roland KC-500's) to live performances just for this reason alone!

aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:24 pm

I think it depends a lot on the monitoring situation and the type of music. Last night we used Mackie powered speakers as the monitors and the German Grand cut right through. I was pretty amazed, but I went with it. I didn't have to use any of my other tweaked pianos.

I agree that we should share our piano tweaks.