Thankfully, this doesn't happen too often, but it can happen.
Take that brand new sampler you bought from a High Street store. Very reputable store. Nice people. But when you got to around to unboxing your 'brand new' item, you maybe saw (and felt) a few sticky fingermarks on the keys and pads. Then, a closer inspection showed a couple of human hairs jammed between the keys. (It would suit my story if you could imagine yourself to be totally bald).
Plus, the manual when you debagged it, didn't smell so good, it was a bit creased and the plastic bag showed signs of being opened and resealed a few times.
Of course, it might not matter. Just so long as the instrument looks okay, no serious scratches, and it plays great, and the warrantee is good and Life's too short ... ?
Or it could be that you are fussy about 'newness'. After all, that's why you chose to spend your money on a brand new item, instead
of taking your chances in the second-hand market.
But there's another reason to demand that the 'brand new' item should be as described. You need to KNOW that this is a brand new item, an unplayed item; factory fresh and meant for you alone.
Otherwise, the first time you struggle over some hard-to-figure part of the manual, you might be thinking about those tacky fingermarks, and is it really you or the instrument to blame?
To my mind, the term 'brand new' should be exactly that: a brand new, totally unused, untried, unopened box item, with no reason at all to open the box between the factory and your kitchen table.
I've heard a few explanations, usually from retailers:
* The box was opened by the store to allow us to insert our own sales leaflets.
* The item was removed from its box by the staff, to check if it worked okay before resealing it.
* We wanted to be sure that the contents matched exactly what was described on the box.
* Our night security man thought he heard mice rustling inside. (joke).
* (LATE EDIT):
Goes something like this:
"... Since the first Korg pa50SD we sent you was damaged in transit (big hole in box plus several other signs of undue wear) ... "we thought we'd better open this replacement item before sending it to you, just to make sure everything was okay..." (paraphrased).
And so on.
sorry for the length of this post.
Happy Jack says thanks for reading.
What if "BRAND NEW" wasn't as 'new' as you thought
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
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Happy Jack
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Well it does happen too often, & they will try to get away with it as much as they can... You'll even get accused of scratching it yourself .
That's happened to me , twice.. Returned both of them straight away.
Its usually a store demo they repackage & sell them AS NEW
the worst feeling when you open the box & discover a scratched/dented
gear (which you paid full price for) Why retailers do this is beyond me..
I like to keep my gear clean , scratch free & take good care of them when
moving them, & all the BS excuses they give you just makes me laugh.
That's happened to me , twice.. Returned both of them straight away.
Its usually a store demo they repackage & sell them AS NEW
the worst feeling when you open the box & discover a scratched/dented
gear (which you paid full price for) Why retailers do this is beyond me..
I like to keep my gear clean , scratch free & take good care of them when
moving them, & all the BS excuses they give you just makes me laugh.
Do not trust anyone unless they are proven trustworthy.
Some random employee at some random music gear shop is not trustworthy. It doesn't matter what words spew from their lips, since even what they think is true is wrong, and the rest are lies and BS.
Do not trust. Verify all for yourself, if you want to get virgin gear. When I walk into a store to buy something new, I tell the clerk that I will be personally opening and inspecting each item to ensure that it has not been reboxed. Even if they claim that they don't rebox, I ignore what they say. That way they know that I am just not going to walk out of the store until I get what I am paying for, however long that takes. Most music shop salesclerks are extremely lazy and will choose the path of least resistance, every time. So if you make it easiest for them to pick virgin gear off the warehouse shelf, then that's what they'll do, compared to pulling 5 items only to return 4 that were reboxed.
Some random employee at some random music gear shop is not trustworthy. It doesn't matter what words spew from their lips, since even what they think is true is wrong, and the rest are lies and BS.
Do not trust. Verify all for yourself, if you want to get virgin gear. When I walk into a store to buy something new, I tell the clerk that I will be personally opening and inspecting each item to ensure that it has not been reboxed. Even if they claim that they don't rebox, I ignore what they say. That way they know that I am just not going to walk out of the store until I get what I am paying for, however long that takes. Most music shop salesclerks are extremely lazy and will choose the path of least resistance, every time. So if you make it easiest for them to pick virgin gear off the warehouse shelf, then that's what they'll do, compared to pulling 5 items only to return 4 that were reboxed.
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Happy Jack
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"...Well it does happen too often, & they will try to get away with it as much as they can..." krazy78
What makes musicians an easier mark, I wonder?
Imagine the following scenario, using the well-known UK gents' outfitters: Greenwoods (established 1860), instead of the musical instrument vendor in question:
ME: G'day Mr G! Me uncle Bob's getting wed. Give me the full bespoke treatment for a bit of new clobber, eh.
MR G: Certainly sir, our pleasure is to serve.
ME: Er, just one thing, Mr G, make sure there's no full English breakfast stains on the westcoat, eh, and don't try unloading any ****-stained trousers on ...
(SOUND OF SOMEBODY GETTING CHINNED):
MR G: Now get out of my shop, sir, before I call for a constable!
.............................
Yes, there's a word for this game:
It is called FRAUD.
What makes musicians an easier mark, I wonder?
Imagine the following scenario, using the well-known UK gents' outfitters: Greenwoods (established 1860), instead of the musical instrument vendor in question:
ME: G'day Mr G! Me uncle Bob's getting wed. Give me the full bespoke treatment for a bit of new clobber, eh.
MR G: Certainly sir, our pleasure is to serve.
ME: Er, just one thing, Mr G, make sure there's no full English breakfast stains on the westcoat, eh, and don't try unloading any ****-stained trousers on ...
(SOUND OF SOMEBODY GETTING CHINNED):
MR G: Now get out of my shop, sir, before I call for a constable!
.............................
Yes, there's a word for this game:
It is called FRAUD.
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Happy Jack
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[quote="xmlguy"
"...Do not trust anyone unless they are proven trustworthy..."
and
"...Do not trust. Verify all for yourself, if you want to get virgin gear." quote]
.............
Yes indeed, wise words for anyone in the process of buying some new gear. Take a friend with you, use your phones, keep alert. Grass up the Re-Boxers, folks. Let's see if they like it up 'em, says I.
Could it be that a state of laissez-faire exists between manufactuer and retailer regards Re-Boxing? I wonder (hand on hip) if it is true that every synth shipped to a UK shop comes complete with three spare boxes?
Be your own Un-Boxing Expert. Using webcam, phone or better still, video camera, record the whole process without breaks, until you are satisfied that yours is the real McCoy.
Post your nightmare Re-Boxing stories here please and lets start a re-boxing victim group. (A misery shared is a misery...something)
Regards the remarkable US-UK Extradition Treaty now in place: I wonder that some UK bandit Re-boxers might be in danger of being snatched at midnight to wake up in Texas for trademark offences?
I wouldn't mind but some of these retailers don't even TRY to hide their sins. Last summer I took delivery of a new synth, opened the box and the first owner was still playing it.
"Come on, sunshine" I says, let's be having you - its MY turn now: If you want the Bournmouth Pavillion you'd better start walking " Cheek!
re-guards from Jack
"...Do not trust anyone unless they are proven trustworthy..."
and
"...Do not trust. Verify all for yourself, if you want to get virgin gear." quote]
.............
Yes indeed, wise words for anyone in the process of buying some new gear. Take a friend with you, use your phones, keep alert. Grass up the Re-Boxers, folks. Let's see if they like it up 'em, says I.
Could it be that a state of laissez-faire exists between manufactuer and retailer regards Re-Boxing? I wonder (hand on hip) if it is true that every synth shipped to a UK shop comes complete with three spare boxes?
Be your own Un-Boxing Expert. Using webcam, phone or better still, video camera, record the whole process without breaks, until you are satisfied that yours is the real McCoy.
Post your nightmare Re-Boxing stories here please and lets start a re-boxing victim group. (A misery shared is a misery...something)
Regards the remarkable US-UK Extradition Treaty now in place: I wonder that some UK bandit Re-boxers might be in danger of being snatched at midnight to wake up in Texas for trademark offences?
I wouldn't mind but some of these retailers don't even TRY to hide their sins. Last summer I took delivery of a new synth, opened the box and the first owner was still playing it.
"Come on, sunshine" I says, let's be having you - its MY turn now: If you want the Bournmouth Pavillion you'd better start walking " Cheek!
re-guards from Jack
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Happy Jack
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Ah yes, now that I think about it, there are stores here in the here in UK who accept 'returns'. It would be interesting to trace the path of those returned goods.roblabs wrote:And don't think they do this just with gear...I've heard lots of tales about retail stores such as gamestop that open up their merchandise and actually REMOVE coupons and the like!
Whether its a new pack of cigarettes or a new DVD, the wrapper's seal is your guarantee of newness. So how about Korg shipping their goods with a tamper-proof label, in which case if the seal is broken ... ?
I must remember to ask my music vendor about their policy of Re-Boxing.
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SanderXpander
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I worked in two different music shops as a side job for over 7 years total. We would only ever really rebox if we had no more stock left, and then only after saying so to the customer. If they really complained and wanted a new one, we offered they could take our floor item and then exchange it for a new one later. As this was more work for both of us, we always tried to avoid that.
Music store clerks aren't evil. Music store managers and owners sometimes are. That said, in the stores I worked at, our floor items were generally in really good condition. They'd just been out in the open for some weeks or months, with maybe two or three entire days of play total on them. Most people looked somewhat deflated after being offered a last-of-stock (floor) item for the same price. But they came to us because we had it, and the competitor didn't. Most people SAID they'd come and exchange their item for new, but generally declined to do so when we made the call that the new item was in.
Music store clerks aren't evil. Music store managers and owners sometimes are. That said, in the stores I worked at, our floor items were generally in really good condition. They'd just been out in the open for some weeks or months, with maybe two or three entire days of play total on them. Most people looked somewhat deflated after being offered a last-of-stock (floor) item for the same price. But they came to us because we had it, and the competitor didn't. Most people SAID they'd come and exchange their item for new, but generally declined to do so when we made the call that the new item was in.
This happened to me last year,with the DSI Monoevolver I bought which was supposed to be Brand new,I bought it online from a well known retailer(who I normally have excellent service from.)So was annoyed about this particular transaction.
When the synth arrived it all looked legit,after opening the box,you could clearly see it wasn't a factory sealed unit,the polythene bag they normally come wrapped in was ripped and clearly been half assed back inside it by some moronic sales guy,no manual and the PSU was rattling around loose!!!!! and after removing the synth....well lets just say a few forensics guys I work with would have had a feild day dusting the fingerprints on the keys,which had obviously been played by a mechanic and there were loads of scratches on the synth...the biggest giveaway was the serial number of the box,didn't match the Synth that was supposed to be inside....yet I was told they didn't open the boxes and I would be getting a new sealed unit!!!!!!
I thought Maybe DSI quality standards had slipped since I bought a sparkly new prophet 08 some few months prior.......which was still oozing that lovely factory smell!!
Was quite livid to say the least seeing as I had paid full whack for the synth,as opposed to another retailer who didn't have them in stock but said they could undercut by £30(but i got the feeling they were just trying take my money as they said they wouldn't be able to get one for a month,but were quite willing to assist me to offload my cash into their bank account that day to secure it!!.......
)
Decided to go with the usual dealer to which was supposed to be brand new for the price and after first enquiring on the phone was told they had 2 in stock,spoke to the retailers manager,who wasn't too amused at the state of the synth and my service,apologised for it and said I could keep hold of this one till a new one had been shipped over,some lame excuse about somebody not checking stock and said they must have shipped me the floor model because of no stock,I said thats fine but would expect to be told about no stock or at least offer me a considerable discount for a soiled model(not that I would buy demo abused stock anyway)he gave me a goodwill gesture of 10% off my next purchase as I've been a regular customer(saved me £50 on the MPK88 I recently bought
Which was most certainly not opened as they got it shipped direct from Akai/Numark to me rather than via the shop first
the new MEK arrived about a week later,clearly this one wasn't open box stock,I always state on the phone now that I do not want any ex demo crap or it will be sent back,I think in these times retailers try it on,and some i refuse to buy from because they are simply box shifters,the trouble with online stuff now is that there is no loyalty because your just a sale,not a face.
There are few retailers around now who are local enough to me to endure a personal service so I am forced to use online or over the phone transactions,which at one time wasn't just about the purchase it was the whole experience of going to the shop,I met many decent people through Sound Control(when it existed)and spent many a day chatting about gear in the shops to various staff,whom I got to know on a personal level,even if I never made a purchase everytime,but when i did i got some great bargains for being a regular(perhaps why they went bust).
When the synth arrived it all looked legit,after opening the box,you could clearly see it wasn't a factory sealed unit,the polythene bag they normally come wrapped in was ripped and clearly been half assed back inside it by some moronic sales guy,no manual and the PSU was rattling around loose!!!!! and after removing the synth....well lets just say a few forensics guys I work with would have had a feild day dusting the fingerprints on the keys,which had obviously been played by a mechanic and there were loads of scratches on the synth...the biggest giveaway was the serial number of the box,didn't match the Synth that was supposed to be inside....yet I was told they didn't open the boxes and I would be getting a new sealed unit!!!!!!
I thought Maybe DSI quality standards had slipped since I bought a sparkly new prophet 08 some few months prior.......which was still oozing that lovely factory smell!!
Was quite livid to say the least seeing as I had paid full whack for the synth,as opposed to another retailer who didn't have them in stock but said they could undercut by £30(but i got the feeling they were just trying take my money as they said they wouldn't be able to get one for a month,but were quite willing to assist me to offload my cash into their bank account that day to secure it!!.......
)Decided to go with the usual dealer to which was supposed to be brand new for the price and after first enquiring on the phone was told they had 2 in stock,spoke to the retailers manager,who wasn't too amused at the state of the synth and my service,apologised for it and said I could keep hold of this one till a new one had been shipped over,some lame excuse about somebody not checking stock and said they must have shipped me the floor model because of no stock,I said thats fine but would expect to be told about no stock or at least offer me a considerable discount for a soiled model(not that I would buy demo abused stock anyway)he gave me a goodwill gesture of 10% off my next purchase as I've been a regular customer(saved me £50 on the MPK88 I recently bought
Which was most certainly not opened as they got it shipped direct from Akai/Numark to me rather than via the shop firstthe new MEK arrived about a week later,clearly this one wasn't open box stock,I always state on the phone now that I do not want any ex demo crap or it will be sent back,I think in these times retailers try it on,and some i refuse to buy from because they are simply box shifters,the trouble with online stuff now is that there is no loyalty because your just a sale,not a face.
There are few retailers around now who are local enough to me to endure a personal service so I am forced to use online or over the phone transactions,which at one time wasn't just about the purchase it was the whole experience of going to the shop,I met many decent people through Sound Control(when it existed)and spent many a day chatting about gear in the shops to various staff,whom I got to know on a personal level,even if I never made a purchase everytime,but when i did i got some great bargains for being a regular(perhaps why they went bust).
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Happy Jack
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That would be fine by me. Not that I'm anyone's Lord Protector of new instrument sales. But I guess the problem is with the less-than-honest retailers; those ones who don't give the customer that fuller information as to New versus Kind-of New.SanderXpander wrote:
(short snip) " .... we offered they could take our floor item and then exchange it for a new one later... declined to do so when we made the call that the new item was in..."
Maybe 'Clocking a Speedo' of a new keyboard should be a criminal offence?
What if the manufacturers demand that any instrument they supply, if Re-boxed, should carry the appropriate warning sticker? Happy regards
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Happy Jack
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Reading these astonishing testimonials, it seems like Mellow is the wrong colour for shopping around for a new keyboard in this re-boxed jungle. Brings out the warrior in a person.Kontrol49 wrote:
"...(big snip)...I always state on the phone now that I do not want any ex demo crap or it will be sent back...".
"Hi. Quote me for a brand new Korg Microsampler, please.
... Thank-you. Now quote me for a brand new Re-sampled one!"
Jack
I hear you brother.
My local GC now has a rehearsal/teaching facility, really cool only a little expensive. They told me I could borrow anything out of the store during my paid session. They then sell this USED equipment at full new prices.
I've been told by my local Pro-Audio shop that due to the amount of in-store purchases, I can borrow any equipment for demo in my home project studio.
So yes, new is not always NEW.
You need to be aware or just beware.
When I buy New Equipment, I don't want finger prints, open wrappers, hairs or any signs of some dirty musician touching it, period! I believe demo's must be discounted, or I am not interested!
Which leads me to another pet-peive, missing knobs and dirty equipment. A symptom in many stores here in the bay area.
If the unit is missing knobs, take it out of display, order new knobs, sell it as a poorly handled demo.
And how about dusting equipment on display!
How can I respect a store that does not respect the equipment it sells, because it is appearent they don't respect me.
My local GC now has a rehearsal/teaching facility, really cool only a little expensive. They told me I could borrow anything out of the store during my paid session. They then sell this USED equipment at full new prices.
I've been told by my local Pro-Audio shop that due to the amount of in-store purchases, I can borrow any equipment for demo in my home project studio.
So yes, new is not always NEW.
You need to be aware or just beware.
When I buy New Equipment, I don't want finger prints, open wrappers, hairs or any signs of some dirty musician touching it, period! I believe demo's must be discounted, or I am not interested!
Which leads me to another pet-peive, missing knobs and dirty equipment. A symptom in many stores here in the bay area.
If the unit is missing knobs, take it out of display, order new knobs, sell it as a poorly handled demo.
And how about dusting equipment on display!
How can I respect a store that does not respect the equipment it sells, because it is appearent they don't respect me.
Kronos-6, Krome, M3, Radias, KingKorg, microKorg, KP-2, KP-3, KO-1, KO-1 PRO, Karma, microX, monotron, monotribe, PadCONTROL, Wavedrum Mini, Volca Keys, Beats, Bass, Sample, monotron Duo & Delay, microArranger, M1, Wavestation, Volca Sample, Keys, Beats & Bass, MS-20
JD-XA, JD-Xi, Aira (system 1, TB3, TR8, MX-1), Prophet 12, Mopho X4, Jupiter-80, FA-06, D50, CS1x, CZ101, DX200, AN200, analogFOUR, MachineDrum, MonoMachine, Motif XF6, Virus Snow, Nord Lead 2X, OP-1, MFOS, Tenori-on, QY100, QY70, meeblip se, miniBrute, microBrute, Bass Station 2
JD-XA, JD-Xi, Aira (system 1, TB3, TR8, MX-1), Prophet 12, Mopho X4, Jupiter-80, FA-06, D50, CS1x, CZ101, DX200, AN200, analogFOUR, MachineDrum, MonoMachine, Motif XF6, Virus Snow, Nord Lead 2X, OP-1, MFOS, Tenori-on, QY100, QY70, meeblip se, miniBrute, microBrute, Bass Station 2
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Happy Jack
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[quote="JPWC"]
"...They then sell this USED equipment at full new prices..."
and
"...So yes, new is not always NEW. .."(JPWC unquote)
Yes indeed: These guys have been taking too literally, the concept of Out-of-the-Box thinking.
On the positive side: At the time of writing, one enterprising Ebay retailer (UK), is now using the following addendum to an advert, that leaves no margin at all for error of interpretation:
(quote): "For sale brand NEW Korg PA500 Professional Arranger. Factory sealed box, never been opened - full 12 months UK warranty" (unquote)
If I'd seen that advert a few weeks' ago, it would have got my business and saved me a lot of hassle.
And now, friends, a quiet word to the Manager of Re-Boxers-R-Us Inc'
"We know who you are and we are watching!"
Happy regards
"...They then sell this USED equipment at full new prices..."
and
"...So yes, new is not always NEW. .."(JPWC unquote)
Yes indeed: These guys have been taking too literally, the concept of Out-of-the-Box thinking.
On the positive side: At the time of writing, one enterprising Ebay retailer (UK), is now using the following addendum to an advert, that leaves no margin at all for error of interpretation:
(quote): "For sale brand NEW Korg PA500 Professional Arranger. Factory sealed box, never been opened - full 12 months UK warranty" (unquote)
If I'd seen that advert a few weeks' ago, it would have got my business and saved me a lot of hassle.
And now, friends, a quiet word to the Manager of Re-Boxers-R-Us Inc'
"We know who you are and we are watching!"
Happy regards
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Happy Jack
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- Location: Staffordshire, UK
Thank-you and welcome.Chriskk wrote:I've had a couple such experiences with Sweetwater. They gave me usual excuses. I haven't spent a nickel for Sweetwater for 10 years and will never shop there.
(paraphrased quote from a website):
"...All RETURNS must be in the total and original packaging ... all accessories, plus relevant bits and pieces, together with complete documentation (Manual, registration card, warrantee documents, quick start booklets, etc.), must show NO signs of wear, or any signs of use, etc ..." (end of paraphrased quote)
Here in the UK, I am now mindful of any of the larger UK musical instrument vendors who also include Music tuition, instrument hire or 'no-quibble returns'.
Why my need for caution? Well, a quick scan of a some of these folks' websites seem to show a notable shortfall of ex-demo / ex-hire / returned items offered at generous discounted prices. So where are the Returns going?:
"Get back in your box, you naughty keyboard, and don't come out again until I say so!"
Or to put it another way: can the *genuine* brand new instruments please stand up and announce yourselves to your prospective owners!
-------------
And now time to introduce another new member to Victims Of Reboxers-R-Us. Here's Bert's story:
Hello, I'm Bert and I'm a re-boxing victim.
I trusted them. I'm a trusting person. But trusted their smart suits, their flash website presences, their glib reassurances. Now I feel cheated... unworthy...unclean...
It was just a harmonica. That's all I wanted: a brand new, unopened, never-out-of-its-box, factory sealed mouth organ to call my own. And what did I get?
Well, I sure didn't order the unwelcome taste of pork scratchings on my new harmonica, or the mysterious, greasy fingermarks on the chrome cover plate, or the whiff of stale tobacco ...
No, it wasn't that. But when I took a deep breath and wrapped my trusting lips around the lower register to bend a minor third ... I suddenly gagged and pulled out of my mouth ...a human hair!
(Yes, it's alright, just help me to stand up, thank-you)... Yes, a human hair! Probably from a moustache. Well, I *prefer* to think it was from a moustache...
Yes, and I also know my local store uses one of those small bellows to demo the harmonicas. But. ... well, the sales guy who was pressing the harmonicas against the bellows... I could've sworn that he didn't wash his hands after going to the toilet. I'd noticed his strolling back into the showroom against the sound of a toilet flushing...
--------------
Thank-you, Bert; that took courage. Could be you'll be more careful where to put your mouth and your money from now on. Okay, Bert, take another deep breath and play us out.
happy regards