Some nice Jarre Covers

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:18 pm

Niblit · Post by **Niblit** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:36 pm

Love listening to the good old JMJ.
I think it's a pity that with all the tech built into the Kronos, there isn't a simple way to programme a catchy baseline as in the example you just posted.

I wish that Karma could be used that way: think of a baseline, program it and then play it at any pitch with one key. Simples

Anyone know how Kronos can do this?

Niblit · Post by **Niblit** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:15 pm

Niblit wrote:Love listening to the good old JMJ.
I think it's a pity that with all the tech built into the Kronos, there isn't a simple way to programme a catchy baseline as in the example you just posted.

I wish that Karma could be used that way: think of a baseline, program it and then play it at any pitch with one key. Simples

Anyone know how Kronos can do this?

Just to add to what I wrote; I know Karma is very VERY powerful in the way that it can be used for so many purposes other than creating simple automatic music. There are hundreds of pre programmed groves for synth guitar, base etc, but wouldn't it be even better if we could create our own and save them.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:28 pm

After Qui's workshop yesterday (I'm going to define everything with before or after that from now on) I became convinced that Karma is a really nice inspirational tool, but close to useless if you've already decided exactly what you want to hear. It's just not made to obey you to every note, but that's part of the fun, I suppose.

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:20 pm

Niblit wrote:There are hundreds of pre programmed groves for synth guitar, base etc, but wouldn't it be even better if we could create our own and save them.

This is where, Karma software for Kronos comes in. It allows you to do just that.
Not that you aren't aware of this but I guess you were talking about creating/saving your own Karma grooves right on Kronos itself.

Niblit · Post by **Niblit** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:38 am

SanderXpander wrote:After Qui's workshop yesterday (I'm going to define everything with before or after that from now on) I became convinced that Karma is a really nice inspirational tool, but close to useless if you've already decided exactly what you want to hear. It's just not made to obey you to every note, but that's part of the fun, I suppose.

This is EXACTLY what I meant to say

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:03 am

This is probably both why

1. It's perhaps a mistake on Korg's part to replace the standard (Triton/M50 etc) arps with Karma. Perhaps this is part of the reason why they created drum track and included the PolySix arp and the step sequencers in the Kronos? In any case, while Karma and arps assume mostly the same roles in Korg workstations, they differ in some essential ways. Which one is better depends really on what you want to do.

2. Stephen Kay gets offended when Karma is called arpeggiator. It's not, really. It, under the right set of circumstances, behave KINDA like one. But it isn't. I suppose you could say that, if you want to compare it to something, of the known synth functions it's closest to an arpeggiator. But part of that perception is because Korg has replaced the standard arps with Karma.

BTW I tried the Karma MW software with my original Karma. It's like watching the Matrix uncoded.

mathieumaes · Post by **mathieumaes** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:18 pm

SanderXpander wrote:but close to useless if you've already decided exactly what you want to hear. It's just not made to obey you to every note

And that's exactly why I think it's useless

I guess you can make it obey if you buy the thirdparty Karma editor...

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:55 pm

Of course you can make it obey you in any way you like and more then
an arranger, at least mine obeys me to the last note and millisecond.
And the software is not ThirdParty, is more likely First Party, Stephen Kay
developed both, the KARMA itself and the Software for it.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:08 pm

I don't think it's as clear cut as either of the last two posters would make it. I would certainly not call Karma useless, at least, it can do very many things that you couldn't do without it. It's just not exactly an arpeggiator replacement and many people seem to want to use it that way. Myself included, by the way.
But BasariStudios, be fair, if I played you a bassline and asked you to reproduce it with Karma, it would take you a lot longer to do (and require the software) than with a standard arp.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:44 pm

There is nothing to be fair in there...it would probably take me less,
it certainly would sound better then the same thing on Arp and of
course i would have to use the software. What i dont understand is
why would one fall in love with a Guy and then at the same time want
to turn that guy into a woman...just find a woman instead of a man.
KARMA is KARMA and it is clearly stated what it is and what it does.
Why do You have to turn it into an ARP or a Sequencer? Ok, i understand
maybe you can't afford both instruments...then, why the HELL you reject
the workaround that will help you achieve the same thing even better?

Yes i said less but thats Me, i Master KARMA Software and i understand
not everyone can do it...but...so what if it would take you longer?
Are we timing our selfs? You will still achieve what you want after 5 min
or after 50 min...man, whats wrong with the world.

You buy a homeless man a MC Donalds meal and he is not happy, he wants lobster.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:05 pm

On the first part I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The fact that you say that it will probably "sound better" kinda proves my point in a way.

And I agree with you totally that you shouldn't turn Karma into an arp or a sequencer. Because that will always be trying to force it to behave like something else. While it can emulate both to some extent, it's much better just being Karma.

That's also why I think it would've been useful if Korg hadn't REPLACED the standard arps with Karma.

Niblit · Post by **Niblit** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:34 pm

I respect karma for what it is or does, but I think it would be a logical step to make it USER PROGRAMMABLE and not just TWEAKABLE.

I know I can purchase the software (for more cash) but I WANT to see this implemented in the keyboard instead of having to rely on a computer.

Steven Kay is a genius but I feel that he has given us a hammer that can hit everything except a nail.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Niblit wrote:I respect karma for what it is or does, but I think it would be a logical step to make it USER PROGRAMMABLE and not just TWEAKABLE.

I know I can purchase the software (for more cash) but I WANT to see this implemented in the keyboard instead of having to rely on a computer.

Steven Kay is a genius but I feel that he has given us a hammer that can hit everything except a nail.

The problem with this is:
One has to understand KARMA a lot to actually understand why it is hard to
implement GE Creation in the synth itself, without understand KARAM itself
people will allways GUESS it can be implemented. It is one thing what we
want but its another thing what is possible.

Why are we forgetting the most important feature in Kronos which will allow
you to actually have something better then Arps? Common and per OSC
Step Sequencer? Or we want something new while we have no clue what
we actually have? Do you actually want me or Qui if he has time to demonstrate
how we can have Arps on the Kronos without purchasing the KARMA Software?

But trust me, anything requires knowledge and effort, even if there was
and ARP people would still complain, due to not knowing how to use it or
to simply just being lazy.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:51 pm

i can understand both points of views, a lot of people i've met in the last couple of years did expect that they could reproduce any pattern they had in their head in KARMA and use the great algorithmic features of KARMA to change that existing pattern in realtime.

The truth is that that isn't possible. If you want to reproduce a pattern like for instance the billie jean bassline you have to do that in the step sequencer or in the wave sequencer as i showed you in one of my tutorials.

There is a KARMA OS version that supports adding your own pattern to the GE library when Korg would implement that version. However, as we know they used the M3 based KARMA version for the Kronos, so that isn't possible and people have to use the existing GE library in the Kronos.

It is what it is, we can't do anything about that. Now there is a possibility to buy the KARMA MW software to create your own patterns. Here you can import your own midi pattern and convert that to a GE. By doing that everyone will expect that the imported midi pattern will be a perfect representation of the imported midi pattern, but that's not the case and it's not how KARMA works. You need to modify the pattern parameters to get close to the original pattern you imported. For instance, listen to the BasariStudios M3 Jean Michel Jarre songs where he created the basslines in a KARMA GE, although it's recognisable as the JMJ song bass it's really far from the original bassline from the original recording.

So that's about the expectation part. When people accept and understand that KARMA isn't a magic Midi style Keyboard Generator for reproducing existing songs with exact patterns, then the fun starts. You got a wealth of patterns with 1000's of variations to get you inspired. I see KARMA as an inspirational tool. It brings me lot's of ideas that i can use to create my own songs with. I never use an exact KARMA pattern, but the creative proces is starting to flow when i use KARMA.

Arpeggiators in the common sense like the Motif Arps aren't giving me this inspiration. They do what the have to do and play the same pattern over and over again so that you can play your song. But KARMA is much more that just a simple arpeggiator, when you dive into the features. Although the standard up/down arpeggiator patterns can be found in the first 32 GE program locations.

But i fully understand that people expects something different when they activate the KARMA button. The Korg M3 had quite some good examples that the Kronos doesn't have. The KARMA patterns in a lot of combis and programs aren't setup well, so there aren't any real examples for people to get started.

so having fun with KARMA takes only two steps:
1: The most important first step is to accept that it isn't an 'existing famous song pattern creator'. Reproducing a pattern from an existing song can't be done on the Kronos.

2: start with the basics. Most people have no clue what the basic parameters do and want to get the most fantastic patterns right out of the box. That's not how KARMA works. When you select a GE you will get a lot of notes and you need to tame down the beast to get a pattern you like and that fits the combi or program you are working on. That takes some time and effort to understand this.

My personal opinion is that KARMA is fantastic but that it's to complicated for most people when they started. It simply does too much when you start. It would be nice if there was one function button that people could touch which would filter out a lot of notes and get rid of the CC messages.

That way people wouldn't feel so overwhelmed at the start. When they got aquinted with the control - KARMA panel which only showes the standard faders and standard knobs then they could get into the advanced mode by pressing an advanced button.

Actually that's how it works now (without the buttons), but because it does to much when pressing the KARMA button most people never make it to the second step and are missing all the great features KARMA has to offer.

I've just gave a workshop here in Holland where i showed the basics (the control panel and the things you need to know to get started with KARMA) and almost anyone (around 30 Kronos owners) hadn't a clue upfront how to work with KARMA. So there's definitly room for some improvement on the KARMA interface to get people started with it.

This is my personal opinion about this of course