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True Polyphany?

 
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EVPS



Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:23 pm    Post subject: True Polyphany? Reply with quote

I know this is an M3 discussion board, and this question is related...sort of.

I have read some of the publicity stuff about the Kurzweil K2661 talking about true 48 note polyphany (192 Oscilators). I have tried reading the manuals to clear this up, but I am still unsure if Kurzweil's True 48 note is better than the M3's 120 note polyphany.

Also on a related note, could anybody clear up if the Radias expansion actually adds polyphany in the same fashion that the MOSS expansion did? The Sound on Sound reviewer was as clueless about this as me!

Hope you're all well and enjoying your M3's, im almost able to afford one, one more pay day! lol
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MartinHines
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem in determining what I would call "effective polyphony" (i.e. the number of simulataneous notes that can be sounded) depends on the complexity of the specific sound being played.

All workstations that use sample playback (playback of small audio samples stored on a chip inside) allow you to create "sounds" that playback multiple samples at the same time. For example, if a single sound (Program) uses two sounds for each note played, your effective polyphony would be 1/2 of the stated theoretical polyphony.

Regarding your M3 and Kurz K2661 comparison, there is no question that the M3 has higher/better polyphony. The only "quirk" to this relates to what are called "note stealing algorithms". When any keyboard reaches its maximum polyphony, it still continues to play notes based on some set of rules (algorithm) regarding dropping existing/already played notes.

Some people feel Kurzweil has a very good note stealing algorithm that helps make up for its lower polyphony numbers -- i.e. even though it only has a polyphony of 48 notes, you won't notice it as much as some keyboards with higher polyphony.

If you are interested in the K2661, you might also be interested in a new product Kurzweil will be releasing at the end of the year (or early next year), the Kurzweil PC3-X (88 keys). This has 128 voice polyphony (which would be similar to the M3).
http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/Product_pc3x.php


Last edited by MartinHines on Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rfoshaug
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Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: True Polyphany? Reply with quote

EVPS wrote:
Also on a related note, could anybody clear up if the Radias expansion actually adds polyphany in the same fashion that the MOSS expansion did? The Sound on Sound reviewer was as clueless about this as me!




Yes it does. It adds 24 notes of Radias polyphony.

If your are familiar with MOSS, here are also a couple of improvements over the way MOSS was integrated into the architecture (which synthesis is the most powerful is of course another debate).

First of all, you now only assign up to 4 timbres that you want to use Radias sounds on - you do not have to specify the exact number of notes for each part. On MOSS you had to specify for example 3 notes of polyphony to part 1 and 3 notes for part 2. With Radias this voice allocation is dynamic and you only specify that you want Radias enabled on parts 1,5,6, and 9 for example.

The second big improvement (that has gotten surprisingly little attention by reviewers and forum members) is the fact that all 4 Radias timbres can have individual effect routings just like any other timbre in the M3. On MOSS, you'd have to specify which timbre should decide the effects, and then all the sound from the MOSS went through that effects routing.
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r12
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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Location: BREST-FRANCE

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's right that exb radias is more flexible than exb moss and have more polyphony

i LIKE what radias can do, but i LOVE what moss can do

exb radias/moss for m3 in the future ? would be great... Very Happy
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Lorenzo
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Joined: 07 Sep 2002
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Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one more thing:
you've pointed to the 192 Oscillators... I'd like to explain better how this work with an example: take Liquid T lead or similar leads which use more than 10 layers... assuming you can recreate this using waveforms on your m3 you'll spend something like 10 osc at least so every key you'll push on your m3 will kill 10 notes of polyphony, you'll have still 110 notes for anything else... on the k series you'll kill 1 single note of polyphony leaving you 47 notes of polyphony.

So in this case m3 is still far better than the k series in terms of polyphony.

in this second example I'll consider a setup a little different.
assuming you need a pad under your lead and you need a really heavy pad with 8 layers... and you need at a 4 note chord (but you have to switch between chords so 4x2=8 notes) you'll have used 64 notes of polyphony for the pad plus 10 for the lead so a maximum of 74 notes of poly. On the k you can create a pad using vast like on a REAL synth so you can create a 10 layers pad with just one sample or no samples at all using 1 notes of poly for each note you press... so 4 notes per chord X 2 (you do not want the cut between 1st and second chord...) = 8 notes of poly plus 1 note for the lead... 9 notes. So 48-9= 39 free notes of polyphony.

with these examples I tried to make the allocation of poly for the k series so that there are no more doubt about it. And you can understand by yourself 1 thing for sure: if you're into the heavy synth programation with layers and layers of waves and algorithm there's no doubt that the k series will produce the best results; if you like to use waverom and prefer samples instead of synthesis the M3 is the way to go (talking about polyphony)
regards, Lorenzo
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EVPS



Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much to all of your replies, you've really helped to clear these issues up for me! All my questions have been answered with a lot of care and thought on this forum, so thanks for anyone who's been pestered by me before for your patience and understanding!

Especially for this post as I know its not a Kurz Forum! Very Happy

Thanks Martin, I had noticed the PC3-X on the kurz site (and much of the debate its caused on this forum! hehe) it looks like an amazing machine, I do love the idea of having all that synth power AND the KB3 organ in single machine (really trying hard not to turn this into another Korg Vs. Kurz debate here!). Both have their benefits, and would certainly compliment each other if I had the space/money (haha my priorites are right on this one huh?) doubt I'd find much to be dissapointed with no matter which one I went for.

Should be able to say im the owner of Synth (A) or Synth (B) sooner or later though, for anyone who's interested, as I understand it lots of people like me are having equal trouble choosing wether to get the M3 or hang fire for the PC3....its the 3's isn't it, marketing confusing the public! hahaha
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bkboy
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Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have no freaking clue why korg decided to take other physical models out of radias expansion board. i mean, with moss, you could have very 'realistic' wind, strings, guitars and even human voices...with radias, its just mmt and more synth sounds.

korg need to release a moss only board with 64 voices polyphony...now THAT would be something!
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purveyor2



Joined: 01 Aug 2007
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Location: Portland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little clarification on the Kurz polyphony - one voice PER layer. Depending on the algorithm, one may use multiple oscillators per layer which is how they get the huge oscillator count. Triple mode uses 3 voices per note. So if a massive lead uses 10 layers, one may have tons of oscillators but you are still using 10 voices per note.
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Lorenzo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes but only using triple mode...
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drama1
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll make this real easy. I currently have an M3-73 and Kurz PC2X, which has 64 notes of polyphony. If I do any kind of piano work using sustained arpeggios I absolutely hear notes dropping out all over the place with the M3. On the Kurz, because of the way it steals polyphony, you will almost never hear any note stealing. It's as simple as that. Kurz is WAY better in that department. On both synths I only use programs, not combi's or setups. Hope that helps.
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