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thuggy_bear
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
Posts: 36
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 Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Themaktima wrote: | | Why are customers defending the interests of the company instead of the customers´ (their own) interests here? ...Why is criticizing the respective product taken as a personal insult? |
I would even suggest that by improving the user experience, Korg would benefit a great deal from a relatively small investment. If more people could easily and enjoyably use the microSampler (as i did when I started putting together far less complex Acetone organ patches, which the external editor was able to loop without popping) they would be able to fill a niche that is completely empty. There really is no hardware sampler at this price point. With a few modifications to the editor software, the mS could be the best thing since sliced bread.
| Themaktima wrote: | | If Korg wants to justify why this and that feature some (or many?) users would have expected hasn´t been built in (be it in the software or the hardware), this is the place to do it. |
Actually, the guy from Korg was pretty nice, and expressed understandable reasons as to why the company would be hesitant to release the code into the wild.
| Themaktima wrote: | | Maybe thuggy bear has been rather harsh in his criticism, but basically i feel he´s on the right track defending his own interest versus Korg. He´s the customer, no? |
Only Korg can judge me!
I haven't checked on my feature request to have the decay/release controls work on looped samples as well. Perhaps I am being hated on for my insouciance there, too.
Stay sassy! |
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3sleeves
Junior Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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@thuggy_bear:
I don't see how referring to every person who replies to your posts as a "troll" or "fanboy" is somehow not intended to be insulting (which I would say is an attack). The extreme sarcasm is far from friendly too. It seems that your issue has been addressed in more than one thread, but you feel the need to repeat yourself without responding logically to any of the proposed suggestions other users offer. I noticed you said you have a workaround, but your way seems much more tedious than necessary. For one thing, a longer sample on the MS is probably the easiest fix and totally possible even at 24kHz. Secondly, using a separate wave editor (like Sound Forge, Audacity, or in your case Reaper) still doesn't seem as painful as you make it out to be. Thirdly, this forum isn't run by KORG as I understand it, but rather it is an independent user forum (it says so on the top center of every page in this forum). I would like the features I mentioned in previous posts addressed as well, but I know posting them over and over again is a waste of my time. The suggestion to seek out official KORG reps is worth pursuing in my opinion. I have sent emails to KORG customer service (the address is available on their website) with my suggestions. Have you tried that yet? Please respond without repeating your issue or insulting me. Thank you. |
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xmlguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3605
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dead horse beating can be opposed without supporting Korg. After the first several messages on the subject, we all got the point. Further repetition merely serves to become an exercise in futility.  |
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thuggy_bear
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| 3sleeves wrote: | @thuggy_bear:
I don't see how referring to every person who replies to your posts as a "troll" or "fanboy" is somehow not intended to be insulting (which I would say is an attack). |
While my first post about the editor (on another thread) was born of the frustration of literally 3 days of trying to efficiently edit non-popping loops for each and every key, in order to preserve the best possible emulatrion of my beloved pile of crappy analog keyboards. I have, BTW, apologized for being overly harsh after I had a day to think about it. I am human, and after so easily assembling several banks from my Acetone, I was frustrated that the Elka was so damned difficult.
The people who I have called trolls and fanboys are the people who have, i think, quite unreasonably attacked me personally for asking Korg to improve their desktop sample editor.
Even though my comments have been (with the exception of requesting that the decay/release feature be extended, if possible, to the looped samples, where it would be quite useful) limited to the desktop, computer based software, people were still giving me a hard time, telling me how to edit loops when I had already described, in detail, how I had gotten it to work, and that I felt it was unnecessarily difficult.
Other comments that fall into the troll/fanboy category are people with indignant and wild speculation into why Korg won't improve a fairly rudimentary piece of software lacking features that have been standard for the last decade and a half.
Martin, for instance, has nothing constructive to offer at all in his comments, except unfounded conjecture, scolding, and a condescending tone. So, again, please forgive me for being irritated that the vast majority of comments on this thread have been little other than completely non-constructive self-aggrandizement.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | The extreme sarcasm is far from friendly too. |
Your point is taken. I'll try an reign it in a little, but, again, it is hard to not be annoyed at all of this off-topic chiding. This thread, other than a couple of posts, has been about just about everything other than an informed conversation of open source, and whether or not it's a good idea, whether or not people are interested, or whether or not it's even possible. It's people getting mad that I would even suggest it, people calling me lazy because I would not be personally be able to program it, people talking out of the backsides as to whether or not Korg will do it. The only person who has really said anything useful has been, unsurprisingly, a guy who works for Korg, and why they'd be hesitant to release the code.
I think this could be a very constructive conversation, which might lead to something akin to the totally freakin' awesome stuff they are doing on the Canon camera OS hack site. Instead, all the thread gets filled with is pointless bickering.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | It seems that your issue has been addressed in more than one thread, but you feel the need to repeat yourself without responding logically to any of the proposed suggestions other users offer. |
My issue? My issue, in this thread, is whether or not Korg would open source the code. I think it would be a good idea. Friends of mine think it might be a good idea. Korg seems to think it might lead to a nightmare of tech support.
This thread should be about open source, but it has been everything but that.
Elsewhere, I have posted that the editor would be vastly improved if it has a crossfade utility, because editing the stuff in a a second piece of software is time consuming and kind of a drag. I have figured out a work around, which I posted in detail, just in case anyone was having the same troubles I was.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | I noticed you said you have a workaround, but your way seems much more tedious than necessary. |
That, my good fellow, is exactly why I posted the "editor is poopy" thread. It is tedious. Tedium leads to mistakes and, uh, tedium  which I would like to avoid. It's why the crossfade tool would be so very, very, very helpful.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | For one thing, a longer sample on the MS is probably the easiest fix and totally possible even at 24kHz. |
I am assuming that you are referring to a 3rd thread I started, which is having the decay/release work on the looped samples as well as the one shots.
Well, if I am willing to sample each and every key in order get the highest quality emulation of my old piles of my pile of crappy keyboards, I'm pretty sure that going lower rez is going to lead to the same problems in a different form- that being it doesn't sound as good as it could.
And the microSampler sounds very good- the Acetone banks I made are indistinguishable, especially live, from the real thing. They also don't go out of tune, don't weigh a thousand pounds, and it allows me to use a couple of drum loops from some old analog drum machines all on the same device. It's totally awesome. The hardware sounds great! I like the effects! The sequencer is nice to have to record ideas!
If only the editor could just crossfade the head and tail of the sample loops and load it onto the mS, I would be in heaven.
That and the decay/release thing.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | Secondly, using a separate wave editor (like Sound Forge, Audacity, or in your case Reaper) still doesn't seem as painful as you make it out to be. |
Well, it's not, if you do it once. But for each bank I make, I have to do it 36 times. For each bank. It gets old, believe me.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | Thirdly, this forum isn't run by KORG as I understand it, but rather it is an independent user forum (it says so on the top center of every page in this forum). I would like the features I mentioned in previous posts addressed as well, but I know posting them over and over again is a waste of my time. |
I missed that rather obvious point until a while ago, but then I noticed that Korg tech guys seem to read it and post. And yes, I keep reposting the same thing, over and over again, because I keep getting excoriated about things that I am NOT posting about. Foolishly, I think this will keep the posts on topic.
Actually, at this point we've wandered far off the open source thing...
| 3sleeves wrote: | | The suggestion to seek out official KORG reps is worth pursuing in my opinion. I have sent emails to KORG customer service (the address is available on their website) with my suggestions. Have you tried that yet? |
Nope. But I will. I was kind of hoping that people would agree with me that the few features that I have asked for were good ideas (those being: decay/release controls, crossfades on the computer based editor, and possibly opening up the code to open sourcing), that the guys from Korg who have posted that we post our feature requests would read them, and we would all live happily ever after.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | Please respond without repeating your issue or insulting me. Thank you. |
I'm afraid that I might have been somewhat repetitive for the sake of clarity, but hopeful not unduly so.
I am not interested if people don't like the way I ask. I would think that people would want to address the content of my posts, and not the tone. |
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3sleeves
Junior Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the response. I understand the concern with not wanting to lose any quality in the tones, but in my experience 24kHz is far from lo-fi when dealing with old synth samples. Of course, that's a matter of taste I suppose and open to debate. As far as making the software open source, I can see the good and bad side. It's understandable that tech support would be a nightmare for an independent programmer to maintain. That is a good point (which the KORG rep said, I think). I also think of how handy open source software has been for me (namely, Audacity and Open Office, among others). Perhaps if the editor software could allow VST plug-ins, that would be a step in bridging the gap. That way open source developers could begin to fill the voids that KORG has decided to leave in the current editor. The most commonly used plug-ins could then potentially be integrated into the editor by KORG if they so choose. I'm no programmer though, and I could see adding VST capability as a bit of a headache (to say the least). If not VST though, perhaps some other plug-in format could be allowed. Either way, I'm not going to guess how much time or money a project like that would require, other than to say "a lot" (of both time and money). Personally though, I don't see that as an impossible goal to reach for within the next year or so. If that was something KORG announced as at least a possibility I think I could wait patiently (for the most part). I'm going to send that suggestion to customer service as well. What do you think of something along these lines? What do your programmer friends think? I really don't know any programmers, just web coders. |
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thuggy_bear
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| 3sleeves wrote: | | Thanks for the response. I understand the concern with not wanting to lose any quality in the tones, but in my experience 24kHz is far from lo-fi when dealing with old synth samples. |
I'll have to try it, of course, but after a very interesting discussion between some audio engineers in regards to sample rates, recording at 44.1 v. 48 v. 88.2 v. 96K, I wonder if there would be enough resolution to capture the absolutely magical overtones that are in the Elka.
A lot of what makes the Elka awesome is that its tones are so unbelievably rich in the overtones which might require a high samplerate- which is why it has been such a bear to edit in the editor, whereas something like the Acetone, with its very neat, sinusoidal wave form, was a snap to make patches for.
Before I even try it though (i'm on my way to the studio now, but probably won't have time to fool around, unfortunately), I can say that the built in time/pitch stretching in the "keyboard mode" (where it maps one sample all over the keyboard) totally butchered both acetone and elka samples, which is how I got into the super anal, sample-each-and-every-key program I'm on now.
The Elka has maybe 4 killer organ sounds, and two super sweet string sounds, so you can see why I tremble at the though of having methodically chop all of those bad boys up, especially with keeping all of the loop crossfades in phase with themselves- another anoying detail- sing the wave form evolves so much over time, a lot of the time I have to audition a few different cuts to make sure the organ's tones don't cancel themselves out and cause comb filtering.
Like you said, all of this isn't that big of a deal, but doing it over and over again is starting to make my bananas.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | Of course, that's a matter of taste I suppose and open to debate. As far as making the software open source, I can see the good and bad side. It's understandable that tech support would be a nightmare for an independent programmer to maintain. That is a good point (which the KORG rep said, I think). |
Well, if think that if they just release the code into the wild and not support it, then people could build what they needed for themselves. People who were given hacked software could use it if they liked it, and use the Korg release if they didn't. To put it into my own field of expertise, if I put Duncan pickups into a Strat, and screw up the wiring, I dont expect fender to fix it for me.
| 3sleeves wrote: | | I also think of how handy open source software has been for me (namely, Audacity and Open Office, among others)... What do your programmer friends think? |
One of them was thinking of getting the calls for importing and exporting from the mS, and getting it to load into Audacity, actually. The snake-eating-its-tail sort of fading though seems like it would need some tweaking of Audacity.
I fear the flames by mentioning the dreaded Jaz and Floppy monster, the ASRX, but when you have sample the loop, the crossfade front/back thing is just a knob you turn until it sounds right. I wonder if something like that could be built into either audacity, or the editor/librarian. |
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mikemolloyuk
Moderator
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 748
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Hi Guys
If we could calm the post down a little that would be great.
I have to say that I have tried to follow the issues that are being raised but i'm struggling to break through all the text to make further points on what is being asked.
I think the bottom line is that Korg in Japan will not release either source code for the editor or the product.
Please remember that they do read posts as much as I or my other colleagues overseas who post do and in a lot of cases changes to products have been made as a result of requests from all you guys in the world but there are some cases where things will not be addressed.
IMHO getting into petty sqables over things like what I have read on this feed are not helping the individuals concerned and certainly wont get you any further in the eyes of Korg in Japan.
Those of us on this forum are all in the most part professionals whether in music or in your own particular field and our posts should retain the due respect given to others who wish to contribute and debate ideas in an adult way.
I wonder if the moderators would care to add a few thoughts on this?
Regards
Mike Molloy
Korg UK Tech Support. |
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3sleeves
Junior Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| @uktechsupport: Is there any chance KORG might release a VST version of the editor software? That way users of other DAWs could run it more conveniently within their preferred workspace. I don't expect you to be 100% certain of KORG's future actions, but is that something that could potentially happen, in your opinion? |
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MartinHines
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| thuggy_bear wrote: |
Since you don't work for Korg, I'm not sure how valuable you opinion is towards their corporate policy.
Now, what possible reason could you have to post the response, as you have no pertinent information as to whether or not they will release their own code? What possible constructive purpose could it serve?
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Yours is an extremely limited perspective given you have been a member of this forum for LESS THAN 30 DAYS. I have the knowledge to answer your question about open source since I have been a member of two Korg forums for SEVEN YEARS NOW, AND THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED BEFORE.
Do you actually think the question of Korg releasing software as open source has never been asked before? People have asked about the following as potential open source -- OASYS OS, Korg M3 editor, Korg Legacy Collection (all products).
Also, there are actually very few Korg employees who post here (2-3), and they only frequent these forums when they have time -- i.e. they don't get paid for the time they spend here. Therefore, it could be days or weeks before any one at Korg would respond. There is a good chance they might not even see your post, and it would have never been answered.
You will be glad to know that I will never answer any of your future questions, even if I know the answer. You've earned it.
Also, don't be surprised in the future if you don't get too many responses from Korg, given your demanding and arrogant character. |
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thuggy_bear
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| uktechsupport wrote: | Hi Guys
If we could calm the post down a little that would be great. |
Done. I will discuss nothing but feature requests from now on, and I will be as polite as possible, Please forgive me for any rudeness you might have perceived.
| uktechsupport wrote: | | I have to say that I have tried to follow the issues that are being raised but i'm struggling to break through all the text to make further points on what is being asked. |
The sum total of all of the feature requests I have made, in this forum are these:
microSampler:
1) The ability to use decay/release on looped samples, so that my organ samples faded out, rather than abruptly cut off on the release of the key, as on my oft-mentioned Elka
2) *new* I forget what it is called on my microSynth (key tracking?) but the ability to adjust the relative volumes of the bass keys versus the treble keys. Sorry, I'm really a guitarist.
Editor/Librarian Software:
1) a snap-to-zero-crossing option when trying to loop samples.
2) a way to easily crossfade the beginning and end of sample loops, so that complex sounds (again, the Elka's organ sounds) can be easily looped without popping. Right now, I'm having to export from the sampler, edit in Reaper/Logic/whatever, and then reimport.
| uktechsupport wrote: | | I think the bottom line is that Korg in Japan will not release either source code for the editor or the product. |
That is kind of a bummer, but I'd be just as happy if I didn't have to export from the microSampler to edit my loops with software that Korg made.
| uktechsupport wrote: | | Please remember that they do read posts as much as I or my other colleagues overseas who post do and in a lot of cases changes to products have been made as a result of requests from all you guys in the world but there are some cases where things will not be addressed. |
Great. Thanks for paying attention.
| uktechsupport wrote: | | IMHO getting into petty sqables over things like what I have read on this feed are not helping the individuals concerned and certainly wont get you any further in the eyes of Korg in Japan. |
I agree, and I will stop.
| uktechsupport wrote: | Those of us on this forum are all in the most part professionals whether in music or in your own particular field and our posts should retain the due respect given to others who wish to contribute and debate ideas in an adult way.
I wonder if the moderators would care to add a few thoughts on this?
Regards
Mike Molloy
Korg UK Tech Support. |
Sorry if I started a ruckus. |
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mikemolloyuk
Moderator
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 748
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| 3sleeves wrote: | | @uktechsupport: Is there any chance KORG might release a VST version of the editor software? That way users of other DAWs could run it more conveniently within their preferred workspace. I don't expect you to be 100% certain of KORG's future actions, but is that something that could potentially happen, in your opinion? |
Hi
Usually when software is released the VST version is done at the same time so the chances of it arriving later are small.
I can enquire for you and post here later.
Regards
Mike |
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