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orchestral string section

 
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jemkeys25
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Joined: 15 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: orchestral string section Reply with quote

the pc3 has some incredible orchestral sounds, the best i've heard in a hardware synth, the sounds i heard from the kronos don't seem to match up. Is there a better example on the kronos ,or is that just where kronos is lacking?
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operaman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We all need to wait to hear the Kronos. Still, if in doubt just do like me and own both. Hell I got the PC3X, the Alesis Fusion 8HD, and have preodered the Kronos 61 (becuase I cannot fit another 88 key controller on my Jaspers stand Very Happy ). This way all bases are covered. If I had to hazard a guess, I am assuming there will be some seriously awesome orchestral sounds, and there will still be the ability to load third party material so I imagine it will be fine in that regard.
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muziksculp
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question/observation.

If the KRONOS strings are not excellent sounding, I see no reason why KORG, or possibly other 3rd-party soundware developers offering first-class, super realistic Orchestral Strings libraries for the KRONOS !

Given the amount of sample data it can stream from the built-in SSD .

So far it has been hard to evaluate the on-board (Stock) string samples/programs that are in the KRONOS from the initial audio demos I heard.
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Dr. Who
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetz guys! I agree the orchestral portion of the Kronos demo was the weakest part. Some of the music played during the demo was just typical ho hum workstation stuff. There were pieces that showed some really good sonic bliss though… I really hope that Korg doesn’t market this thing with some weak orchestral demo’s and Karma combis playing presets. That will not spell game changer to most.

Please clarify, do you guys do orchestral work but don’t use software? Please don’t take offense at that statement, I am truly curious as to the sound quality of orchestral work (strings, brass woodwinds etc.) on a hardware synth. I’ve never heard of anyone doing that convincingly with hardware. I have been doing much orchestral work this past year or so and made the reluctant ugh.. leap into software to do so. I couldn’t be happier with the results (amazed really) but If I could travel around with a 61 key and still make convincing orchestral scores that would be a godsend to not be a slave to the PC! But I have never come across anything at all that comes close to Vienna or EWSO Platinum. Do you guys have any sound bites (no need for complete works) that shows what is possible with a synth? I heard some older Kurz demos and wasn’t convinced it was a real orchestra at all. Please again don’t take this as being arrogant etc. I am honestly very curious and very willing to buy another board if it gets me away from a computer. To me that’s what makes this leap into disk streaming such a big deal by Korg. The amazing orchestral bundles out there that the Zimmers and Elfmans use are disk streams from a computer and have much more than 5 or 6 velocity triggered samples (i.e. round robin sampling etc.) and open the door to all kinds of articulations and realism. If Korg has tapped into streaming with a workstation, it is only a matter of time before we get a crazy portable sampling workstation with a 100’s of GB of orchestral and votox choir samples that will blow the doors off of anything that has ever been seen in a workstation.
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muziksculp
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Dr. Who

Software samplers are the choice of many composers, I don’t think anyone doing serious orchestral work for (i.e scoring for film, or other serious orchestral project) is using a hardware keyboard/workstation. The primary reason, in my humble opinion, is that most HW workstations have been very limited in the amount of sample data they can have access to.

With the dawn of the KRONOS, which KORG mentions can stream large amounts of sample sounds directly from SSD, the game is beginning to change, with a 30 GB (SSD) drive built into the KRONOS, there is a lot of room to add some very high-quality orchestral sounds. (Strings, Brass, Woodwinds, and Percussion), Plus much more. But, this is still dependent on the quality of the samples, and programming of the patches (i.e. number of articulations, number of velocity layers, …etc.)

HW-Workstations have a bright future with this new breakthrough technology, but so far, the KRONOS is not marketed as a workstation that focuses on Orchestral Instruments, but rather, a multi-synth engine workstation, with a large amount of samples on board (I think it comes with 12 GB, where 4.5 of that is already dedicated to Piano !).

Interestingly enough, some of the arranger keyboard workstations, such as the Korg Pa series, and YAMAHA Tyros, offer some great sounding orchestral sounds, (better sounding than their traditional workstations), I never understood their philosophy with this detail, but never the less, Arranger-Workstations, still can't compete with software based sample libraries.

My wish is to see a HW-Workstation that is dedicated to Orchestral sounds, with a large SSD drive with streaming from SSD feature, and is designed from the bottom up to do this perfectly well, and compete with Software based sample libraries head-to-head. Well… Maybe this will happen in the future, but for the moment, it has not yet materialized. Possibly due to the narrow marketplace, and the Price point/competitiveness that software offers when compared to hardware.

I would love to have a hardware workstation that I can carry with me when I’m not in my studio, or traveling, and just enjoy creating some great orchestral music that is as good, or very close in quality to many sample libraries out there, Mabe this is still a far out dream at this point in time. But I continue to dream about this becoming a reality one of these days.

Cheers,
Muziksculp.
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Dr. Who
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

muziksculp wrote:
Software samplers are the choice of many composers, I don’t think anyone doing serious orchestral work for (i.e scoring for film, or other serious orchestral project) is using a hardware keyboard/workstation. The primary reason, in my humble opinion, is that most HW workstations have been very limited in the amount of sample data they can have access to.


That's pretty much what I thought, but you never know if there is some unhidden gem out there... Tough to compare 2GB of samples to a 120GB library dedicated to orchestral sounds and an engine with deep articulation abilities. If and when the Receptor can support Kontakt 4.1 and East West's Play engine things may get interesting. That aside, you hit it on the head. I don't know if Korg will ever focus on orchestral realism in their workstations, BUT with disk streaming the possibility is now there. No workstation that I know of can compare with a 100 plus GB of samples for an orchestral collection, however... if you can slap a 1TB SSD drive in a Kronos or Kronos II and 3rd party developers come out with deep orchestral libraries... look out! I'm don't think those that do not use virtual instruments have any idea what this disk streaming means for the future (yes that was a double negative). Aside from the OASYS engines the game changing feature here is disk streaming from a SSD. Very very cool stuff!
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:30 am    Post subject: Re: orchestral string section Reply with quote

jemkeys25 wrote:
the pc3 has some incredible orchestral sounds, the best i've heard in a hardware synth, the sounds i heard from the kronos don't seem to match up. Is there a better example on the kronos ,or is that just where kronos is lacking?


Here are my favorite orchestral demos from the OASYS. The sounds & samples used are included in the KRONOS as well. Note that these are all a few years old now!

http://www.korg.com/services/downloads/mp3/OASYS/exs3/combis/Endless_Orch_Pad.mp3

http://www.korg.com/services/downloads/mp3/OASYS/exs3/combis/Suite_of_the_Seasons.mp3

And finally, Peter Schwartz's Red Square Sinfonietta. Note: This is a demo which blends real instruments with onboard OASYS sounds (using the OASYS audio tracks). The audio tracks are the piccolo, flute, alto flute, oboe, english horn and viola.

http://www.korg.com/services/downloads/mp3/oasys/SinfoniaRusse.mp3

Hope this helps!

- Dan
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McHale
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: orchestral string section Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
Here are my favorite orchestral demos from the OASYS. The sounds & samples used are included in the KRONOS as well. Note that these are all a few years old now!


You mean, the demos are a few years old or that they didn't update the samples for the KRONOS? If I'm reading things right, the sample set for the KRONOS is barely larger than the M3. So does that mean they are still compressed on the KRONOS (and possibly older than the samples on my M3)?
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Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha).
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Gargamel314
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't Karo release a set of New Orchestral Sounds? wouldn't they be totally compatible with KRONOS?
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NuSkoolTone
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: orchestral string section Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
jemkeys25 wrote:
the pc3 has some incredible orchestral sounds, the best i've heard in a hardware synth, the sounds i heard from the kronos don't seem to match up. Is there a better example on the kronos ,or is that just where kronos is lacking?


Here are my favorite orchestral demos from the OASYS. The sounds & samples used are included in the KRONOS as well. Note that these are all a few years old now!

http://www.korg.com/services/downloads/mp3/OASYS/exs3/combis/Endless_Orch_Pad.mp3

http://www.korg.com/services/downloads/mp3/OASYS/exs3/combis/Suite_of_the_Seasons.mp3

And finally, Peter Schwartz's Red Square Sinfonietta. Note: This is a demo which blends real instruments with onboard OASYS sounds (using the OASYS audio tracks). The audio tracks are the piccolo, flute, alto flute, oboe, english horn and viola.

http://www.korg.com/services/downloads/mp3/oasys/SinfoniaRusse.mp3

Hope this helps!

- Dan


I appreciate the references, but are there any examples that don't sound like glorified pads and are only Kronos? I'd like to hear some solo sections and quartets. Something that really lets you hear the timbre of the samples.

Additionally, as much as I love orchestral horns, are there any "Funk" Horns? I'm talking James Brown baby!
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danatkorg
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Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: orchestral string section Reply with quote

Hi McHale!

McHale wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
Here are my favorite orchestral demos from the OASYS. The sounds & samples used are included in the KRONOS as well. Note that these are all a few years old now!


You mean, the demos are a few years old or that they didn't update the samples for the KRONOS?


The former. These are OASYS demos; Sinfonia Russe is from 2005.

McHale wrote:
If I'm reading things right, the sample set for the KRONOS is barely larger than the M3. So does that mean they are still compressed on the KRONOS (and possibly older than the samples on my M3)?


Re compression: most ROM-based workstations, the M3 included, use lossy compression. KRONOS (and OASYS before it) does not. Here's the section of the manual about this:

* * *
Lossless compression

When EXs data is loaded into RAM, the KRONOS uses a lossless compression technique. This yields a modest reduction in size; for instance, EXs1 uses 284MB of RAM for 313MB of data.

You’ll notice that this is much milder than the dramatic size reductions of mp3, or the PCM compression sometimes found in other synthesizers. There is a strong advantage over these other methods, however: the KRONOS compression is completely lossless, and causes absolutely no degradation in audio quality.
* * *

Re sample size vs. the M3: we haven't released official info yet, but the KRONOS preloaded sample data is roughly 20x the size of the M3's (!!!). The total amount loaded in the factory configuration (including "ROM" and part or all of EXs1 and EXs3-9) is something around 11GB, most of that using VMT of course. In comparison, the M3 ROM is 256MB (16-bit linear equivalent), plus 320MB RAM with the optional EXB-M256. As another example, the M3's Brass and Woodwinds titles total 256MB (16-bit linear equiv), while the KRONOS EXs3 Brass & Woodwinds is about 707MB.

Hope this helps!

Dan
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For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
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McHale
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: orchestral string section Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:

Re sample size vs. the M3: we haven't released official info yet, but the KRONOS preloaded sample data is roughly 20x the size of the M3's (!!!). The total amount loaded in the factory configuration (including "ROM" and part or all of EXs1 and EXs3-9) is something around 11GB, most of that using VMT of course. In comparison, the M3 ROM is 256MB (16-bit linear equivalent), plus 320MB RAM with the optional EXB-M256. As another example, the M3's Brass and Woodwinds titles total 256MB (16-bit linear equiv), while the KRONOS EXs3 Brass & Woodwinds is about 707MB.


Here's what I was referring to:

http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=598

Quote:
Preset PCM:
314 MB (ROM 1,505 multisamples, 1388 drum samples)


Since the M3 had 256MB plus 4 expansion libraries equaling another 300 or 400 MB...

When you take out the "engines" you're left with the PCM ROM data above to handle the other stuff like orchestra instruments for example. So based on your response, the EX's aren't part of that 314 mb, right? You'll have to excuse me as I'm not too familiar with OASYS or KRONOS... yet.

Thanks again!

-Mc
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drama1
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McHale, you're asking practically every question I would ask since I'm an M3 owner also. I saw somewhere in these threads that you ordered the Kronos 88 from Sweetwater for $3600? I sure would like to know the details. By the way, I notice you're from Illinois. So am I. What's the name of the band you work with? I'd like to come and see you play when you have the Kronos.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: orchestral string section Reply with quote

Hi McHale!

McHale wrote:

Quote:
Preset PCM:
314 MB (ROM 1,505 multisamples, 1388 drum samples)


Since the M3 had 256MB plus 4 expansion libraries equaling another 300 or 400 MB...

When you take out the "engines" you're left with the PCM ROM data above to handle the other stuff like orchestra instruments for example. So based on your response, the EX's aren't part of that 314 mb, right?


Exactly. That 314MB is just the "ROM" bank. EXs1 through EXs9 are each separate banks. While we haven't released specifics about the sizes of these yet (I'm sure we will soon), the total size of the preloaded samples is around 11GB. There are additional samples on the disk which are not loaded by default, such as the EXs2 piano (which is about 500MB on its own).

Best regards,

Dan
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Dan Phillips
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Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
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jemkeys25
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I notice you guys mention loading samples to the ssd and streaming them,but in another thread marked"30 GB SSD" I asked if this was possible and was told it was possible to save samples to the ssd but not possible to play the samples directly from the ssd, so can i get some clarification on this feature, cause if you could, then this would help with large orchestral samples by allowing you to load different sections of an orchestra, record them, load the next section,record etc...,which would solve the orchestral sound argument.
pretty cool Cool
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