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Kornos and MOSS options
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xmlguy
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3605

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of us don't reveal everything we play, or who we play for, because it gives us more freedom to express ourselves here. So whatever impression you may have, you only see what I want you to see, nothing more. I've played brass since I was 10 years old, including concert and marching bands in University, so let's just say I have more than a casual interest in brass physical models than merely producing or listening to other people's work. I've also been doing synths since I soldered together my first PAiA module in the 70s, having been inspired by Tomita. Oh, and I perform for people too, more than I listen to recorded music.
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ozy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xmlguy wrote:
I've played brass since I was 10 years old, including concert and marching bands in University,


and you sneer at breath control?

and at synthesis techniques which respond to it?

and you'd rather have a trumpet sample go vibrato because you hit c2 with yout left thumb on an i-pad screen while playing the melody with your right thumb?

Just asking, because that's what was implicit in your previous post.

Quote:
xmlsguy: Wivi Band - Blowing away a new workstation without breathcontrol and physical model brass: priceless


The fact that Kronos once again LACKS breath control, IMHO, is a serious shortcoming.

less "physical" controllers (no breath, no pads, single CC pedal) and more reliance on LCD is a trend the Kronos confirms, and which I don't think is musical.

But is the answer to this trend... the I-PAD?!? Shocked

Maybe I am passé, maybe I am fixed with old stereotypes like "being all thumbs" as meaning "being clumsy".

Maybe I am too fond of having ten fingers and a mouth articulate enough to be able to command a mouthpiece...

Maybe that's specieist arrogance,

and the future of music is muscle-less snails playing a flat surface with their stomachs.

A snail could play a LCD "controller", she couldn't play a keyboard or a sax. maybe I am racist in thinking the keyboard or the sax are superior.

Who knows?

Tribal wood drums became obsolete, probably keys and mouthpieces will as well.

Maybe the moquette in my studio will become the next big thing in musical interface.

You stand on it and think of music, and music happens.
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xmlguy
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3605

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you misunderstood my message. I wasn't sneering at having breath control. iPod Touch 4G + Wivi Band is physical model brass with breath control. I was comparing that to a new expensive workstation without a physical brass model (of some kind) and no breath control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn_uBjKTnkQ

So, I think you ended up spitting into a head wind. Smile

Just be clear, I am FOR breath control and FOR physical brass models and not against them. I am FOR anything that give better realism, particularly natural articulations of any kind.

I'm against spit valves, valve lubrication, metal polish, and that nasty green stuff that grows inside of brass. Mr. Green (we need an emoticon for yuck.)
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ozy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xmlguy wrote:
(we need an emoticon for yuck.)


yes we do. Confused

We need an emoticon for "cringe" as well. 3d Faint

which is what happens when I see the Most Acclaimed Keyboardist of the Century Drool

soloing on a TV remote control.

And explaining the importance of the physical dimension of instruments Shocked while holding a PDA as if it was a guitar! Brick wall

You know: bi-dimensionality damages the brain. You don't think the same way in two or three dimensions, with or without a force opposing and limiting your gestures.

There's a reason why, at the top of the dot.com mania, when for 12 months everybody spent alltheir time on a computer, people who spent their days trading "virtual stocks" made a fortune for box gyms, and if the best selling movie in those years was "Fight club".

the brain revolted to two-dimensionality, and people, without realizing it, craved for physical contact. At the extreme point, self destructive, paranoid physical contact.

There was a "fight" mania just months before these people committed economic suicide by losing touch with reality in the name of "virtual" economy.

I happened to study that, and I am amazed and worried at the "music without instruments" trend.

A keyboard is three-dimensional, a cell phone is not. A keyboard offers physical challenge (dexterity in strenght), a LCD doesn't.

Dexterity used against a force elicits hormones which are NOT involved in tapping on a glass screen.

Using fingers on a solid object require parts of the brain which are no way involved in gesturing in the air or just gently tapping your fingertips.

There are anthropological consequences of that. And not for the better.

Come on, look at the guy's facial hair! Rolling Eyes
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xmlguy
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3605

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, I thhhhhhink I agree with you Ozzy.

With Wivi Band, the screen acts like the valves. Blowing into the mic is what gives the breath expresssion, along with the physical model. So using Wivi Band without breath, is less expressive than a velocity key with aftertouch. With breath, it's more expressive. And as SpIdErWeB mentioned, the full versions of Wallander Instruments are far more powerful and expressive.

Now, I can add a BC3 breath controller to any synth with the Midi Solutions midi controller, but if the brass model doesn't respond realistically to the full range of expression possible with breath control, then, the effort would be pointless. I'm not counting out the KRONOS until I try it. I like getting lots of good brass.

Regarding Jordan's facial hair, I bet his wife's opinion will matter more than yours or mine. He plays keys a hell of a lot better than I do, so I have nothing but respect for the guy, so he could look like Darth Maul for all I care. He could do this, and it wouldn't phase me one bit:

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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D


Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4123
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xmlguy wrote:
I think you misunderstood my message. I wasn't sneering at having breath control. iPod Touch 4G + Wivi Band is physical model brass with breath control. I was comparing that to a new expensive workstation without a physical brass model (of some kind) and no breath control.


Small point: according to their presentations, Wivi is resynthesis, not physical modeling. This is supported by their data size, and by the lack of a Sondius license.
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SpIdErWeB
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Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 209
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I remember, it does "simulate modeling" proprieties but that's additive synthesis...

And again, iOS WIVI is far away from the full VST version.
(it's funny for iPhone and so on... But that's it!)

Phil
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xmlguy
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3605

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
xmlguy wrote:
I think you misunderstood my message. I wasn't sneering at having breath control. iPod Touch 4G + Wivi Band is physical model brass with breath control. I was comparing that to a new expensive workstation without a physical brass model (of some kind) and no breath control.


Small point: according to their presentations, Wivi is resynthesis, not physical modeling. This is supported by their data size, and by the lack of a Sondius license.


Are you trying to add to the list of modeling types that KRONOS can't do yet? Smile

Brass Physical Modeling
Spectral Modeling/Analysis-Resynthesis
Sample Modeling (of the order used by Sample Modeling for The Trumpet, or Yamaha SuperArticulation2)

Perhaps someone at Korg can explain why the PA3X has RX and DNC, but not KRONOS? Yamaha is putting more articulated voices on the Motif XF, derived from the Tyros SA2.

The time has come for the best articulated sounds on the arrangers to be put on the workstations. There's plenty of workstation buyers who don't care at all about arranger styles, but who do want the best articulated sounds.
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EvilDragon
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SpIdErWeB wrote:
From what I remember, it does "simulate modeling" proprieties but that's additive synthesis...


Yep, it's mostly additive synthesis.
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