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RH3 or "synth action"
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cello
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Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2152
Location: Glasgow, UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well this debate could go on forever... !

Even piano keyboards are not the same. Like driving three different cars need three different driving 'techniques'. My T3, Radias and O all have different trigger points and feel entirely different. One is not better than the other technically, but musically the O wins.

I just adjust to which one I'm playing. Ultimately it's what the player does that makes the music the player wants - doesn't really matter what the keyboard is (technically). For instance - Ashkenazy can't take his piano with him for all his gigs - he has to use the one at each of the venues (yes, of course they're all top of the range pianos) but nonetheless he still has to adjust his playing to suit the piano mechanism he's playing to get the musical effect he wants.

Same with keyboards, I think. No manufacturer is EVER going to produce one keyboard that suits all musical tastes, all musical genres, all players and all possible sounds that can be produced.

Ergo, a debate that can't be won!
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robinkle
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 382
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cello wrote:
Well this debate could go on forever... !

Even piano keyboards are not the same. Like driving three different cars need three different driving 'techniques'. My T3, Radias and O all have different trigger points and feel entirely different. One is not better than the other technically, but musically the O wins.

I just adjust to which one I'm playing. Ultimately it's what the player does that makes the music the player wants - doesn't really matter what the keyboard is (technically). For instance - Ashkenazy can't take his piano with him for all his gigs - he has to use the one at each of the venues (yes, of course they're all top of the range pianos) but nonetheless he still has to adjust his playing to suit the piano mechanism he's playing to get the musical effect he wants.

Same with keyboards, I think. No manufacturer is EVER going to produce one keyboard that suits all musical tastes, all musical genres, all players and all possible sounds that can be produced.

Ergo, a debate that can't be won!


+1

This is so true. Smile
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Scott
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Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cello wrote:
Well this debate could go on forever... !

Even piano keyboards are not the same.

Of course there are many variations, many varieties of every type of keyboard. I even mentioned that there are *some* weighted actions (like Nord's) that are amenable to organ techniques. On the flip side, there are *some* unweighted actions, like the Yamaha NP-30, which are reasonably usable for piano. But in general, most unweighted actions are very poor in their ability to support natural, controllable, expressive dynamics from piano playing technique, and most weighted actions are poor in their ability to respond well to many organ techniques.

To get out of the theoretical to the actual issue at hand, from my limited experience with the RH3 keyboard in particular, I don't think it lends itself to organ technique. So if I had a 73/88 Kronos, I'd want to attach another controller if I was a serious organ player.
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robinkle
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 382
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
cello wrote:
Well this debate could go on forever... !

Even piano keyboards are not the same.

Of course there are many variations, many varieties of every type of keyboard. I even mentioned that there are *some* weighted actions (like Nord's) that are amenable to organ techniques. On the flip side, there are *some* unweighted actions, like the Yamaha NP-30, which are reasonably usable for piano. But in general, most unweighted actions are very poor in their ability to support natural, controllable, expressive dynamics from piano playing technique, and most weighted actions are poor in their ability to respond well to many organ techniques.

To get out of the theoretical to the actual issue at hand, from my limited experience with the RH3 keyboard in particular, I don't think it lends itself to organ technique. So if I had a 73/88 Kronos, I'd want to attach another controller if I was a serious organ player.
To my experience, most weighted keys I've used, works fine for organ techniques. But I think synth action is a tad better. So I agree to that the synth action is better suited, but I think weighted works fine enough.
We are different players with different needs wants.That's how it is. Smile
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ozy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cello wrote:
No manufacturer is EVER going to produce one keyboard that suits all musical tastes, all musical genres, all players and all possible sounds that can be produced.


and if he did, he'd probably forget including a decent bassoon emulation anyway Crying or Very sad
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McHale
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2438
Location: B.F.E. Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robinkle wrote:
To my experience, most weighted keys I've used, works fine for SOME organ techniques. But I think synth action is better.


Fixed it for you. Smile
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robinkle
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 382
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McHale wrote:
robinkle wrote:
To my experience, most weighted keys I've used, works fine for SOME organ techniques. But I think synth action is better.


Fixed it for you. Smile


Sounds like you suited it for your self. You can't speak for me.
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alantunucci



Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Brasil

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McHale wrote:
alantunucci wrote:
They call it "semi-weighted", but for me there's nothing "weighted" about it. It is synth action.


No, there's definitely a difference between Semi-weighted and synth action. My Kohnler & Campbell upright piano's action is almost identical to the M3's semi-weighted action (resistance and speed). And the M3's semi-weighted keys are MORE weighted than the Yamaha semi-weighted keys on my Triton.

Semi-weighted keys feel slightly sluggish compared to synth action. Fully weighted is more sluggish and heavy compared to synth action.


Well, I respect your opinion, but I insist that for me there's nothing "Semi-weighted" abutou M3's keybed. Maybe my M3 has a problem...

Kurzweil PC3 has semi-weighted keys, and they are very differente from M3's.

I Agree with you that semi-weighted are very different from synth-action, but the point is that no one gonna convince me that M3 has semi-weighted keys. They are too light for my taste, and I don't feel that playing Kurzweil PC3.

Anynay, there's no point putting names, I just don't like M3-73 keys, but I will love Kronos keys because they are Rh3.
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sani
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Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 354
Location: Croatia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alantunucci wrote:

I Agree with you that semi-weighted are very different from synth-action, but the point is that no one gonna convince me that M3 has semi-weighted keys. They are too light for my taste, and I don't feel that playing Kurzweil PC3.


That's exactly my point. I would never call the M3-61/73 keybed as semiweighted. It's semiweighted only you compare it to the keybed of the Tr, Le, or the M50. The M3-61/73 are great for synth type sounds, but they still lack any resistance and are nowhere near suitable to play any piano type sound. While a keybed can't be perfect for any instrument type or playing style, I still think that there are better keybeds out ther, being a good compromise between a light synth type keybed (like on the M3) and a fully weighted piano action key.
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burningbusch
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Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a difference among these "synth" actions and the term semi-weighted refers to an actual weight that is glued to the underside of the key. All high-end synth actions have this including the M3, Yamaha Motif X, Roland V-Synth, etc. If you place your finger on the underside of a key you should be able to feel a flat smooth surface that is a bit cooler to the touch than the plastic. That's the metal weight. On cheaper synth actions you will only feel the plastic. Compare the M3-61 action to the M50-61 and you will feel a difference. The semi-weighted actions are smoother and more of a liquid feel.

One of the first things I do when testing out a synth action is to feel the underside for these weights.

Having the weights doesn't ensure it's going to be a good action. It tried the little keyboard that comes with the Arturia Factory package and though it had the weights, one of them was falling off and the overall action was unpredictable.

Busch.
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