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1/4th gig RAM in a 2011 flagship $3000 workstation. REALLY??
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mamamatze



Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the new boesendorfer XL sample from the nord piano library has 196.8 MB by itself. So I think you just can't have enough sample memory. However, the stated 273 MB in Kronos with the option of up to 1 GB after unloading EXs is already quite something. And with a good file management, you can always load only the sounds/samples you need for a certain gig or studio project.

Let's compare:
Clavia Nord Stage 2: 500 MB piano sounds + 380 MB sample library sounds
Kronos: 273 MB factory, up to 1 GB after unloading EXs
Motif: 128 MB (although up to 2GB can be stored in purchasable ROM expansion)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the way I understand it, in Motif, you have 2 GB of sample ROM that you can use to store your own samples. However, you can't load more than 128 MB out of those 2 GB because the RAM is limited to 128 MB

However, the RAM upgrade to 4 GB would be awesome for the Kronos. Hope Korg will implement it soon.
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mrk
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Motif XS has up to 2GB sample RAM - used as you would expect.

The XF has up to 2GB Flash RAM + 128MB RAM as working area. Editing is done in the latter, storage in the first. So you could theoretically work with 2176MB samples at the same time.

They use the flash to not have to load the samples at boot, because that takes quite long and the flash just keeps the data while being powered off.
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Devnor
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Main thing I miss about my XF was the flash memory. While you can have up to 2Gb memory you can't have a single sample larger than 128MB in the yamaha.
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mrk
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I also do not see a point in having a single sample being larger than that. This is 1500s playtime in mono, so more than 10mins stereo.

As an instrument sample that makes more than 17sec sample time per key if you create an individual sample for each of the 88 keys.

I never had or saw a sample being even close to such a size.

Edit: (calculated for 44.1kHz - for 48kHz it would be 1300+sec and 15.8sec per key)
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burningbusch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue with the Motif XF is not so much that a sample can't be larger than 128MB, but when building sampled-based instruments on it a MULTI-SAMPLE cannot be larger than 128MB. A MULTI-SAMPLE contains many samples mapped across the keyboard and they can be at multiple velocities per key. I ran into this limitation when trying to build a Rhodes which which used 16 velocity layers. For most people it's not going to be an issue but you definitely can bump into it.

There is a way around this by using Chicken Systems Motif Creator. You create the instrument in something like Kontakt and it creates Motif mutli-samples which are larger than 128MB.

BTW, importing and deleting multi-samples into the Flash on the XF is EXTREMELY time-consuming. Deleting is the most time consuming.

Busch.
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MartinHines
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jahrome wrote:
And if I was Yamaha trying to sell workstations and expensive flash RAM, I would probably try to convince customers as well that 128 MB is enough. But when the previous version of Motif had 1 GB of sample RAM, it is still a hard sell (thus the reason why this thread was started). Ram is used by the sampler as well as for audio tracks. 20 minutes will be quickly eaten up if user decided to add multiple audio tracks to a song.


I just looked at the Motifator site to refresh my memory about what Yamaha posted. The Motif XF architecture prohibits you from recording any one single sample longer than 6min, 20secs. This single sample will take 32MB if mono or 64MB if stereo.

Therefore, with 128 MB of Sample RAM on the Motif XF, you could record two stereo audio tracks that both are 6 minutes long. If you wanted to record more tracks, you would then transfer these first two audio tracks over to Flash ROM, then your Sample RAM would be free for more recording.

This is a slightly different way of working than with the Motif XS, but it appears to accomplish the same end result, with the addition of not having to reload data at power up.
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SpIdErWeB
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burningbusch wrote:
BTW, importing and deleting multi-samples into the Flash on the XF is EXTREMELY time-consuming. Deleting is the most time consuming.


Yep! That's the main reason why I do believe more in the Korg's way, by using PC Architecture (such Open Labs, Muse Research, Lionstracs, etc...), which can today delete and load 1 Gb of samples in less than 10 seconds only... and even faster tomorrow with bigger and faster SSD, memory, cpu, motherboard, etc...

What's the interest? They get all benefits of tons of R&D puts in computer market with very few effort (mainly made on the Oasys). So now Korg can stay focus to develop better sounds, better environment, GUI Interface, features, etc... instead to waste time to design faster memories.

When they will decide to do a new workstation in 3, 4 or 5 years from now, they will only have to choose the best "PC Combo (Mobo, CPU, memory, storage)" available, write the drivers they will need, put everything in a new chassis with new design, buttons, controllers, etc... install the new OS which contains all new sounds and features improvements and done...

That's the main reason they could propose a Kronos to an attractive price, because most of the development was already done with the Oasys.

IMHO, that's definitely the way to go and I'm glad Korg did it Smile

Phil
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Devnor
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The secondary benefit to Yamaha flash is you can take your preloaded flash module and install it into anyone's Motif XF for instant access to your samples.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mamamatze wrote:
Let's compare:
Clavia Nord Stage 2: 500 MB piano sounds + 380 MB sample library sounds
Kronos: 273 MB factory, up to 1 GB after unloading EXs


But the biggest piano sample on the Nord is under 200 mB. The biggest piano sample on the Kronos is over 4000 mb, streamed from the SSD in real time. So the comparison is not necessarily that simple.
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jahrome
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MartinHines wrote:
jahrome wrote:
And if I was Yamaha trying to sell workstations and expensive flash RAM, I would probably try to convince customers as well that 128 MB is enough. But when the previous version of Motif had 1 GB of sample RAM, it is still a hard sell (thus the reason why this thread was started). Ram is used by the sampler as well as for audio tracks. 20 minutes will be quickly eaten up if user decided to add multiple audio tracks to a song.


I just looked at the Motifator site to refresh my memory about what Yamaha posted. The Motif XF architecture prohibits you from recording any one single sample longer than 6min, 20secs. This single sample will take 32MB if mono or 64MB if stereo.

Therefore, with 128 MB of Sample RAM on the Motif XF, you could record two stereo audio tracks that both are 6 minutes long. If you wanted to record more tracks, you would then transfer these first two audio tracks over to Flash ROM, then your Sample RAM would be free for more recording.

This is a slightly different way of working than with the Motif XS, but it appears to accomplish the same end result, with the addition of not having to reload data at power up.

Which to me makes doesn't make the Motif XF ideal for recording audio tracks. Motif XS and Fantom G are better suited for recording audio tracks without the cumbersome process of recording, editing, and then burning to Flash Ram.
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mrk
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jahrome"][quote="MartinHines"]
jahrome wrote:
Which to me makes doesn't make the Motif XF ideal for recording audio tracks. Motif XS and Fantom G are better suited for recording audio tracks without the cumbersome process of recording, editing, and then burning to Flash Ram.


Mmmh... dunno - I for one have no problems with that limit, as I'm only working on one song at a time and the 128MB are more than 20min sample time - or 10min stereo. This is most of the time enough for four stereo audio tracks in the mix.

Of course, if you really want to do all the editing with Motif, it will be a little bit weak (guitar track, vocals...) but for that then I'd really prefer some PC software sequencer.
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Akos Janca
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
mamamatze wrote:
Let's compare:
Clavia Nord Stage 2: 500 MB piano sounds + 380 MB sample library sounds
Kronos: 273 MB factory, up to 1 GB after unloading EXs


But the biggest piano sample on the Nord is under 200 mB. The biggest piano sample on the Kronos is over 4000 mb, streamed from the SSD in real time. So the comparison is not necessarily that simple.


I just want to mention that comparing the sample sizes doesn't help. Smaller samples could still be better, more usable - it also depends on many other things. We play not only the samples but the whole instrument.
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jahrome
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mrk"][quote="jahrome"]
MartinHines wrote:
jahrome wrote:
Which to me makes doesn't make the Motif XF ideal for recording audio tracks. Motif XS and Fantom G are better suited for recording audio tracks without the cumbersome process of recording, editing, and then burning to Flash Ram.


Mmmh... dunno - I for one have no problems with that limit, as I'm only working on one song at a time and the 128MB are more than 20min sample time - or 10min stereo. This is most of the time enough for four stereo audio tracks in the mix.

Of course, if you really want to do all the editing with Motif, it will be a little bit weak (guitar track, vocals...) but for that then I'd really prefer some PC software sequencer.


You may not have problems with 128 MB and the 4 stereo track limit. However, for someone that wants to use their workstation instead of a PC for basic multi-tracking (my Fantom G gives me 24 audio tracks...1 GB of sample time), 128 MB may not be enough for one song. Motif XF was tempting but I am keeping my Fantom G...at least for the next 2 1/2 months.
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mrk
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jahrome wrote:
You may not have problems with 128 MB and the 4 stereo track limit. However, for someone that wants to use their workstation instead of a PC for basic multi-tracking ...


I guess for that purpose the Motifs are not the best choice, as a standard sample can only be played from the beginning. This means if you have a sample track with one sample for the whole song (e.g. Vocals), then you cannot pause and continue in the middle of the song.

Well - you can - but you won't hear any vocals then. You would have to rewind and play from the beginning. Same goes for any time jumping. Maybe there is a trick, but then I never found it.

This is why I think that a limit of 128MB is not a big deal for the Motif (as in "Anything that needs more, you would not want to do with a Motif anyway" Wink).
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