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Shakil
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 1169
Location: New Jersey, USA
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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breath controller?!?!?! Wish it had brass/wind physical modeling.
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Roland Fantom-G6 ARX1, Korg M3-m exb-Radias, Korg Z1-18v, Roland MC-808, Roland MC-909, Korg microKontrol. |
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Rosen Sound
Approved Merchant
Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 1056
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ozy wrote: | | robbinhood wrote: | it sucks that many people can't enjoy the kronos. it just bugs me a little that a lot of people here at the forum cant be happy with that. Then again, i use stone technology (triton extreme) and i still think i get better sounds of it then most keyboards on the market today. SO my opinion must not be valid  |
this shows that even heavy metal keyboard player may have some rationality 
read the two halves of your post, which I quoted.
so, you know the "the most recent keyboard" and "the ultimate keyboard" are not synonyms.
read my signature.
then do the math.
That's it.
A 20 years old keyboard can make 5 sounds you'll never hear on anything else, newer or older.
A new keyboard may require (space, money, portability) selling the old keyboard to get the new. Is that worth it? always?
I already said I'd buy the kronos if it was a module (so if it didn't want at all cost replace my master keyboard - I run around 4 keyboard: 2 o them can't be 76 or 88 keys). Because I could just ADD it and think about it for some time.
This not being the case, because the 88 is an expensive 50 pounds beast and because it lacks this and that in spite of being very good, before losing something I need to weigh the pros and the cons of getting something new.
And "this keyboard will do everything, forget everything you have, ditch everything and fork 4000 but that's the last money you'll spend" is never true. Has never been in my almost 40 years on synths. |
Oh im very aware the newest keyboard and the ultimate keyboard are NOT synonymous! Believe me, i had the money to afford the M3, or fantom G6... And i still went with the used triton extreme... I can definitely agree with you that a lot of old synths stol have there place today. Kronos is awesome, and i will have it by september hopefully. But i am not gonna sell my TEX and Rack full of gear for it, as a matter of fact, i wont even use it live, ill continue using my TEX! Why? Cause the triton is absolutely wonderful for my power metalz. And if i have something on kronos i need live... sample!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0qDNXpERaI
Someone listen to that and tell me the triton wont forever be the perfect metal keyboard!
_________________
Current gear: Korg Kronos 61, Oberheim OB-8, Alesis Vortex
Past Gear: Triton Extreme w/moss & ram, Korg Radias, Kurzweil Micropiano, Triton classic, & Karma
Come visit my Burbank California repair shop/recording studio! Rosensound.com
And my band: Sirion.us.com |
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jemkeys25
Full Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| i did really like the triton, with the moss board of coarse. |
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Rosen Sound
Approved Merchant
Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 1056
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Meh, moss was never a big thing for me. Radias took care of that!
_________________
Current gear: Korg Kronos 61, Oberheim OB-8, Alesis Vortex
Past Gear: Triton Extreme w/moss & ram, Korg Radias, Kurzweil Micropiano, Triton classic, & Karma
Come visit my Burbank California repair shop/recording studio! Rosensound.com
And my band: Sirion.us.com |
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jmexio
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | 24-bit samples are IRRELEVANT from synthesis standpoint. You are not creating dynamics with keymaps (and dynamics is the only thing sample bit depth is important for!) |
Sorry, but if this was right keyboards would be using 8 bits of resolution, or 6, or 4... 
It is my (maybe crude) understanding that with higher sample rates you get a potentially lower noise floor, but also a more accurate representation of the analogic waveform... Or am I missing something?
I do know about 1 bit sampling, but that implies several megahertz of sampling frequency, as opposed to a few kilohertz
Looking forward for education on the subject 
Cheers,
Juan Miguel |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:01 am Post subject: |
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jmexio - you're mixing up sample rates and bit depth. They're different things.
Sample rate - horizontal resolution (frequency). The higer sample rate, the more precise (less stepped) the digitized waveform will be. Bit depth - vertical resolution (amplitude). 16 bits are perfectly enough for romplers. Why? Because the actual dynamics of the patch you're going to play are NOT created by the raw waveform - you're using amplifiers with envelopes and velocity tracking, and filters with envelopes and velocity tracking to ensure the dynamic range. Oh, and velocity layers, too.
Understand what I'm trying to say? 24-bit ROM samples won't win you anything discernible, really. But 24-bit AD/DA converters will!
Last edited by EvilDragon on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:12 am; edited 3 times in total |
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chilly7
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 821
Location: planet Earth
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| jmexio wrote: | | EvilDragon wrote: | | 24-bit samples are IRRELEVANT from synthesis standpoint. You are not creating dynamics with keymaps (and dynamics is the only thing sample bit depth is important for!) |
Sorry, but if this was right keyboards would be using 8 bits of resolution, or 6, or 4...
It is my (maybe crude) understanding that with higher sample rates you get a potentially lower noise floor, but also a more accurate representation of the analogic waveform... Or am I missing something?
I do know about 1 bit sampling, but that implies several megahertz of sampling frequency, as opposed to a few kilohertz
Looking forward for education on the subject
Cheers,
Juan Miguel |
His is one of the idiots from Kurzweil forum.
People from there can tell your much more stupid crupp which makes no sence  and u never convince them otherwise
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Chilly, you're stepping over the line, and you're insulting my honestly acquired knowledge throughout my 15 years with sound synthesis and musical instruments. Stop it before you regret it. You're making an ass of yourself. |
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mackbaz
Junior Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| StephenKay wrote: | | Citizen Klaus wrote: | | Lougheed wrote: | I also experimented with my iPhone, using finger tip, and "clicking" with finger nail. Either technique seems to work (on the iPhone), but you do in fact have to bend the finger a little more to use the fingernail technique. (I keep my fingernails very short, as I suspect most keyboard players do). Few like the clicky-clack.
I'm encouraged by your comments, and yes, touch screens do require a bit of technique and "getting used to". |
Note also that the iPhone screen and the Korg's TouchView screen are very different from one another -- they use different technologies to sense the touch input. You'll have the physically press into the TouchView screen in order to register a response, where you can just lightly brush the iPhone screen. |
What's also interesting is, the iPhone does not respond to a stylus at all, of any sort. Whereas, the Korg touch screens do... |
Its because like most smart phones, the iphone uses a capacitive touchscreen whereas the kronos has a resistive touch screen.
A capacitive touchscreen panel is one which consists of an insulator such as glass, coated with a transparent conductor such as indium tin oxide (ITO).[7][8] As the human body is also a electrical conductor, touching the surface of the screen results in a distortion of the screen's electrostatic field, measurable as a change in capacitance. Different technologies may be used to determine the location of the touch. The location is then sent to the controller for processing.
A resistive touchscreen panel is composed of several layers, the most important of which are two thin, electrically conductive layers separated by a narrow gap. When an object, such as a finger, presses down on a point on the panel's outer surface the two metallic layers become connected at that point: the panel then behaves as a pair of voltage dividers with connected outputs. This causes a change in the electrical current, which is registered as a touch event and sent to the controller for processing.
Quite different tech. |
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chilly7
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 821
Location: planet Earth
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | Chilly, you're stepping over the line, and you're insulting my honestly acquired knowledge throughout my 15 years with sound synthesis and musical instruments. Stop it before you regret it. You're making an ass of yourself. |
I have no respect to 15 years expiriense of fool.
p.s. I don't have a time and don't want to tell and convince u again that black color is not yellow color I better will be ignoring mp3 fun boys like u up next 
peace
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:48 am Post subject: |
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How low can you go, Chilly, how low? 
For your information, I don't use MP3 at all, I use FLAC.
Learn how to spell and type correctly, already. |
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jmexio
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | jmexio - you're mixing up sample rates and bit depth. They're different things.
Sample rate - horizontal resolution (frequency). The higer sample rate, the more precise (less stepped) the digitized waveform will be. Bit depth - vertical resolution (amplitude). 16 bits are perfectly enough for romplers. Why? Because the actual dynamics of the patch you're going to play are NOT created by the raw waveform - you're using amplifiers with envelopes and velocity tracking, and filters with envelopes and velocity tracking to ensure the dynamic range. Oh, and velocity layers, too.
Understand what I'm trying to say? 24-bit ROM samples won't win you anything discernible, really. But 24-bit AD/DA converters will! |
I'm aware of what sample rates and bit depths are. I also know that the dynamics are brought by velocity tracking and connected volume changes, and that the sample itself is "static".
Now, sample rate is how often you take a sample (it's in the name ). That means that the higher the rate, the better, as stated by Nyquist (EDIT: actually not true, if you go over Nyquist's limit for the frequency you're trying to capture, you are wasting space, in theory.). Bit depth, on the other hand, gives you the scope of possible values each sample can take.
That means that if you have 8 bits and 44.100 samples per second, while you can capture the audible range (~20.000 Hz), each "picture" will only host one out of 2^8 (256) values. CD's use 16 bit, so that each sample has a range of over 65.000 values (2^16), making each individual "picture" of the 44.100 taken each second, a more accurate representation of that instant's pressure value. Incidentally, that is exactly how you calculate the size of a wave file if you know how long the track is... sampling rate*bytes per sample*channels*time in seconds. In this case, 44.100 * 2 * 2 * time, a little over 170.000 bytes per second.
Maybe if your sample is heavily compressed, you can get away with lower bit depth, but surely the attack transients will suffer (¿?).
And my question remains, if bit depth is of no consequence, why adopt 16 bit at all? where is the limit to how low you can get and why?
Hope I am a bit more clear this time 
This forum is filled with talented and intelligent people, so I might as well try to learn something
Cheers,
Juan Miguel |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:45 am Post subject: |
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I'm confident that in a double blind test you couldn't hear a difference between a 16-bit and 24-bit sample!
16-bit gives you about 96 dB of dynamic range in theory, which is pretty much enough if you don't want to make your ears bleed.  |
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chilly7
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 821
Location: planet Earth
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | I'm confident that in a double blind test you couldn't hear a difference between a 16-bit and 24-bit sample!
16-bit gives you about 96 dB of dynamic range in theory, which is pretty much enough if you don't want to make your ears bleed. |
As u are mp3 fan boy, u have distroyed ur ears, bucause for mp3 fund boys, better sound means lounder sound. so u pass the safe sound level very easely, and then ur ers beging to demage so when u listen to ur compressed music loudly at public trunsport, u just destroying ur ears.
the bed news is that u never will restore ur ears if u dameged them
p.s.
Any professian music enginir with proffesional studio equipment can tell the difference between 24 bit/ 48 khz and 16 bit/48khz good recordings
for example
the big dinamic level not aways means the lound sound, it always it also can mean that the sound can be very quit, i can hear up to - 100 dbs on peaks from 800 hz to 8 khz on my eqipment, and i can hear sounds buyond 22khz frequincy but probably u cannot, but it does not menan if u cannot then awrybody else cannot, many people can but thay are not waisting time to convince fools that they are fools..
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Last edited by chilly7 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:50 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Rosen Sound
Approved Merchant
Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 1056
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| chilly7 wrote: | | EvilDragon wrote: | I'm confident that in a double blind test you couldn't hear a difference between a 16-bit and 24-bit sample!
16-bit gives you about 96 dB of dynamic range in theory, which is pretty much enough if you don't want to make your ears bleed. |
As u are mp3 fan boy, u have distroyed ur ears, bucause for mp3 fund boys, better sound means lounder sound. so u pass the safe sound level very easely, and then ur ers beging to demage which is not true so when u listen to ur compressed music loudly at public trunsport, u just destroying ur ears.
the bed news is that u never will restore ur ears if u dameged them
p.s.
Any professian music enginir with proffesional studio equipment can tell the difference between 24 bit/ 48 khz and 16 bit/48khz good recordings
for example
the big dinamic level not aways means the lound sound, it always it also can mean that the sound can be very quit, i can hear up to - 100 dbs on pecks from 800 hz to 8 khz, but probably u cannot, but it does not menan if u cannot then awrybody else cannot |
_________________
Current gear: Korg Kronos 61, Oberheim OB-8, Alesis Vortex
Past Gear: Triton Extreme w/moss & ram, Korg Radias, Kurzweil Micropiano, Triton classic, & Karma
Come visit my Burbank California repair shop/recording studio! Rosensound.com
And my band: Sirion.us.com |
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