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Seeing is Believing
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Blazer



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject: Seeing is Believing Reply with quote

What I'm still waiting to see demonstrated is building a sequence on the Kronos with either the on board sequencer and/or a computer sequencer. You've thoroughly convinced me that Kronos is fully capable of producing a wide palate of very interesting and useful sounds. But I have yet to see the Kronos workflow in the studio. I have seen an M3 in the studio video but didn't feel it told the whole story. Can anyone point me toward a demonstration of building a song up, track by track, with any one of these fine Korg instruments?

I'd appreciate any feedback.
Thanks,
Blazer
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Blazer



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The silence is deafening. Look, I'm totally rooting for this keyboard in every possible way. Korg has demonstrated Kronos in every possible way EXCEPT sequencing a tune on it. Well HELLO. Yeah look, I'm glad that with set list mode that it's gonna be great live. Without a doubt, this is a major accomplishment. Kudos to Korg for that. Plus, I'm absolutely thrilled about how amazing Kronos sounds. But before I go gutting my recording studio (i.e., selling tons of stuff in order to find a way to pay for Kronos), I would sure feel a hell of a lot more comfortable if you guys could provide a video demonstration of using Kronos with a computer in the studio. I mean c'mon, making claims about how great Kronos is going to interface in the studio is one thing, but the proof is in the pudding. Yamaha and Roland have absolutely no problem with providing demonstrations of this kind. You've heard location, location, location. Well I say, workflow, workflow, workflow.
I'd like to feel confident about Kronos in the studio, but at this point I just don't. I've been disappointed before. Please show me that my fears are unfounded. I strongly suspect that I'm not alone in my apprehension....
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to point out that:
- You posted on a Sunday, and are disappointed when you haven't recieved any reply on Monday?
- No one outside of Korg has actually got a KRONOS yet, so they can't make said video for you, nor describe exactly how it is done
- These forums aren't run by Korg and some of Korg's staff occasionally post here voluntarily.


As far as a 'workflow', you should take a close look at M3, Triton, and most relevantly OASYS videos. The KRONOS has almost exactly the same operating system and most features are taken directly from the OASYS.

Currently the M3 actually has a more advanced sequencer, because it has piano roll, track view, meters, etc. We don't know if these will come across to KRONOS - it would be nice, but Korg is never one to announce features until they are ready. In that respect the sequencer is similar to the Triton series.

There are several approaches you can take to putting together a song. Korg's sequencers have (for a long time) had a feature called RPPR which allows you to sequence looped patterns (or indeed one-shot patterns, perhaps not even of notes but SysEx commands, patch changes, etc) which are assigned to certain keys, or you can 'put' patterns directly to a track, either as a 'shared reference' or putting the actual notes to track.
You can use KARMA to record to a track but (sadly) you can not record notes to a track which then go back to trigger KARMA. not without using some external MIDI cabling anyway.

You can just select a program for a track, select that as the 'current' track, and then hit record and play your notes straight into it. You can input notes in a stepwise fashion too.

Your own personal workflow may differ but I'd suggest setting up your own effects for each song rather than just copying all effects from certain programs or combis. Perhaps a select few will be useful - such as a guitar sound's specific amp simulation or drive characteristics from a combi or program. But overall effects are a part of mixing and you will find your end result a lot more cohesive if you select effects relevant to your mix rather than blanket-applying effects to things.

Additionally in the OASYS and KRONOS you can record up to 16 mono audio tracks (up to 8 stereo). That I would like to see more about. I've read about some people mentioning bouncing their MIDI tracks to the audio ones in order to allow them more space for sequencing. This is somewhat a destructive process because you can't get those MIDI tracks back easily. But if you're working on a massive project it may be handy. I'd personally never use that many tracks. But you can just record from the inputs straight into an audio track.

Another thing which OASYS, KRONOS and M3 have (plus KARMA workstation and I think the TEx) is Tone Adjust. This allows you to select a number of parameters from each program and adjust them to suit your song more. For example, you have a synth sound but it is too bright, select 'cutoff' as one of your tone adjust parameters and reduce the value slightly. I don't know how many of these you can use. I think on my KARMA it is 2 or 4 but I think here you can use more. You can also use Tone adjust live whilst you are recording a track to record motions to the synth sound live into your track or pattern.

Something you can do on all Korg workstations in Combi and Sequencer mode is control external synths. You simply set up a track/combi as EXT status on the appropriate MIDI channel. Mixer level and pan will be sent by default, along with the program change number and usually the bank number (in EXT2 mode you can specify bank MSB and LSB, rather than using the Korg bank format). Additionally, in Combi mode you can set key and velocity zones for external control and naturally you could use KARMA sent out to these external devices.

This is mainly based upon my experience with the Triton series, plus some relevant reading, and some videos watched from the OASYS and M3. So anyone feel free to build upon this, fill in the blanks, or correct me if necessary.
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robinkle
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Blazer.
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Blazer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your responses. Yes, I know it's Sunday/Monday and I'm not expecting miracles....
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan has posted some basic VSTi/sequencer facts in another thread:

Let me cite what I noted then:
1. The editor runs standalone, or as a VST or AU-compatible plug-in. If you're using ProTools, just use a VST-RTAS wrapper.
2. The editor DOES require Kronos to be connected in order to hear anything. There is no sound source in the software itself.
3. Although it shares some fundamental architecture with the M3 editor (one instance controls all 16 timbres), the Kronos editor is VERY different... It feels much closer to interacting with the actual interface on the Kronos display. If you're editing an MS-20EX Program, for example, you get to use the patch panel.
4. The editor has librarian functionality that allows for some often-requested ordering features.

Ordering features meant that you can easily (re)place programs/combis to the slots you like within the editor, if I remember well.

Dan confirmed that something like screenshots is not yet available.


Last edited by jimknopf on Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Blazer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds intriguing....
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Blazer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm stirring things up it's only with our best interests in mind....
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BasariStudios
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeing is Believing Reply with quote

Blazer wrote:
/or a computer sequencer.


That probably doesnt make sense...that wont show nothing about the Kronos,
it will work exactly the same as any other synth...as for you it will work exactly
as much as you know about the sequencer and which sequencer it is.
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Blazer



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BasariStudios wrote: "That probably doesnt make sense...that wont show nothing about the Kronos,
it will work exactly the same as any other synth...as for you it will work exactly
as much as you know about the sequencer and which sequencer it is.

Since you touched a nerve, I'm not gonna pull any punches.

I'm gonna go ahead and lay it on the line:

Brother, where on Earth have you been for the last decade?"

Yes, in the past it's been true that any keyboard with MIDI works as well as any other MIDI keyboard with a computer sequencer. Welcome to 2011! Yamaha (for example) has gone out of it's way to provide computer integration with its Motif series keyboards. They work especially well with Cubase/Nuendo but also quite well with other sequencers such as Logic (for example). Honestly, if you're not hip to what Yamaha has achieved with it's Motif series keyboards then maybe it's time to step up your game. I honestly don't expect the Korg Kronos to even come close to the Yamaha Motif in terms of computer integration. No disrespect, but a few years ago at the NAMM show I saw (in person) Korg's complete and utter failure with their 6 channel mlan interface for the M3. The latency was horrible. It's no wonder that they scraped it. Talk is cheap. Korg really needs to demonstrate that the Kronos shines in the studio before I (or anyone else that's a studio cat for that matter) ends up shelling out hard earned money for it. Period.


Last edited by Blazer on Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:42 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Blazer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, don't believe me then. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about Kronos. I hope it integrates beautifully in the studio. But personally I'm just not willing to take a chance on it until I see it done. Remember if you use the usb interface and Kronos becomes your soundcard/audio interface, then your monitor speakers would have to be hooked up to Kronos - a less than ideal situation if you ask me. At least with the Motif XS or XF with the firewire option, you can use the Yamaha N12 mixer (or the new steinberg interfaces - MR816s) on the same firewire bus with the same driver so your studio monitors don't have to be plugged in to your keyboard. Instead your studio monitors can be plugged into your mixer or audio interface where they belong. Then you can transfer your Motif sequences to the computer as audio files in one pass - up to 8 stereo tracks at a time! Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

Sure, you can route the digital outputs and/or the analog outputs from the Kronos to your audio interface. But then how would you coordinate the Kronos editor/librarian which is MIDI only with your audio only I/0 being routed into your sequencer? Wouldn't you end up juggling back and forth between viewing these two sets of settings? Doesn't Kronos have to be set to Local Off when using it with a computer sequencer (I would assume so)? Well, if Kronos is set to Local Off, then how would you trigger Karma? How do you go about recording Karma into the computer? When you send a program change command from your computer sequencer to Kronos will it change the Kronos combination or the patches within the combination? Are the program change commands able to address the correct sound engines within Kronos? Do you see what I mean? I'm not trying to be a troublemaker here. I genuinely feel that these are viable questions and legitimate concerns. Don't you? Without actually seeing all this done all we've got to go on so far is blind faith. However, I'd absolutely love it if these questions could be answered by someone knowledgeable. (At Motifator.com, Bad Mister and others answer these types of questions in great detail.) I guess what I'm really hoping for is that we'll be able to get that kind of support from Korg. Is anyone willing to chime in? Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Blazer on Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Blazer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Btw, thank you X-Trade and jimknopf for your helpful input and on topic comments....
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MartinHines
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blazer wrote:
Ok, don't believe me then. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about Kronos. I hope it integrates beautifully in the studio. But personally I'm just not willing to take a chance on it until I see it done. Remember if you use the usb interface and Kronos becomes your soundcard/audio interface, then your monitor speakers would have to be hooked up to Kronos - a less than ideal situation if you ask me.


I don't think Korg is ever suggesting that the Kronos be your ONLY audio interface, requiring you hook up monitor speakers to your Kronos.
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Blazer



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Martin Hines,

Thank you for your response. I wasn't saying that Korg was suggesting that Usb would be Kronos's only interface. What I'm trying to point out is that, for most of us, the usb audio feature is virtually useless. If Korg made audio interfaces the way Yamaha does then the usb audio connection would be useful because then both Kronos and your audio interface could share the same driver. As it stands now, in a professional studio the usb audio most likely won't get used at all. On the other hand, I do feel that by including it Korg is taking a step in the right direction.

Look, I really wouldn't care so much about all of this stuff if I didn't think that Kronos is an outstanding sounding keyboard. It's truly an incredible accomplishment. Korg should be proud and rightly so. What concerns me the most is that I'm extremely unclear just how thoroughly Korg has implemented studio integration with Kronos. With Yamaha, on the other hand, there's absolutely no doubt that studio integration is a very high priority for them. Of course it doesn't hurt that they own Steinberg. Very Happy

I'm still waiting for further clarification regarding this matter....


Last edited by Blazer on Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:23 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Blazer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to share this with all of you. Athan Billias, the guy in charge of the Yamaha Motif used to work for Korg. In fact, he even hired Stephen Kay (who I greatly respect). Here, check it out:

http://interview.sonikmatter.com/data/athan_billias.php

My point is that a lot of these guys at the top know each other and have for years. In one sense they're competitors but at the some time they're probably old friends - which I think is both cool and interesting....
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