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kronos editor 2.0
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jahrome
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a second, I thought I was mistaken. Because when I owned Motif Rack, using its Editor inside Nuendo was wonderful. The Editor of Roland's XV-5080 is also nice.

The Kronos editor I find useless as do I strongly dislike the Editors for the Fantom workstations.
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's it in Motif Editor that you can not do on KRONOS editor? Give me one example. Then also compare the onboard screens on Motif, Virus and KRONOS, and then tell me which one need the software editor more?

Motif and Virus are one type of synthesizers. KRONOS has 9 synths. The editor lets you edit all 9 synths, correct?
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QuiRobinez wrote:
Shakil wrote:
jahrome wrote:
Kronos editor is terrible. Have you ever used the Editor for Motif series? Significantly better than the Kronos Editor which is a bad joke.


Yes, I have used Motif Editor..... it sucks big time. As soon as you select a different patch on a part your effects tweaks for that part are gone!!!!!!!!! try it.

i don't agree, the motif editor is a great editor.

of course your effect tweaks are gone when you change the sound for a part. This is because in the Motif the synth engine structure of the sounds includes the effect session.


And that's the flawed effects design on Motif.... useless! Fantom G followed this design, and fell on it's face as well.
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QuiRobinez
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:
What's it in Motif Editor that you can not do on KRONOS editor? Give me one example. Then also compare the onboard screens on Motif, Virus and KRONOS, and then tell me which one need the software editor more?

Motif and Virus are one type of synthesizers. KRONOS has 9 synths. The editor lets you edit all 9 synths, correct?

It depends what you are using it for, when you use a lot with a DAW where you produce multiple songs at the same time, then full editing , automation and total recall are the keywords that are important when using editors.

The Motif editor and Virus ti editor has this all available in a 64 bits environment. Both editors also support complete latency compensation with their included audio paths.

Now ALL these things are missing in the kronos editor when you are a producer that uses a 64 bit environment (like all 'semi' professionals do).
There is no 64 bits support, no automation available, no internal audio routing through the VSTI, no total recall and definitly no possibility to change each sound to your liking in the project and store that for total recall purposes in a non destructive way.

When you take these things in consideration my opinion is that it's safe to say that on the computer integration area and DAW integration area the kronos editor is lightyears behind the competition.

Which is a really bad thing in 2012 where computer integration is a huge part of the acceptance of a synth in a production environment.

I love the kronos and it's functionality, but i also have to be honest that the integration solution is one that was available around 2005, but absolutely not acceptable anymore in 2012.

That doesn't mean it can't be used in a production environment, but you have to use it the old skool way and not the modern way. And my opinion is that the Kronos deserves more because it can be a gamechanger not only in functionality but also in the DAW market as soon as they takes these things up to the current standards and expectations of musicians.

But who knows, maybe the editor V2.0 will surprise us in a big way.
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QuiRobinez
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:
QuiRobinez wrote:
Shakil wrote:
jahrome wrote:
Kronos editor is terrible. Have you ever used the Editor for Motif series? Significantly better than the Kronos Editor which is a bad joke.


Yes, I have used Motif Editor..... it sucks big time. As soon as you select a different patch on a part your effects tweaks for that part are gone!!!!!!!!! try it.

i don't agree, the motif editor is a great editor.

of course your effect tweaks are gone when you change the sound for a part. This is because in the Motif the synth engine structure of the sounds includes the effect session.


And that's the flawed effects design on Motif.... useless! Fantom G followed this design, and fell on it's face as well.


hehehe, that's an opinion not a fact.

just out of interest, if effects are such a big issue for you, why don't you use external effects for those sounds, most producers in a DAW don't use effects in a synth because the external effects are most of the time of a better quality and can do more exotic things and more importantly, can be fully automated in the song.

That sounds like a good solution for you, why didn't you do it that way?
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil, I know it is part of your workflow to change patches and effects while a sequence is running to hear the changes in context.

But all synths I am aware of change effects as part of the patch/program. Can you tell me which synths keep effect settings while changing patches?

To me, like to most of the other users I know, the Kronos VSTi is pretty useless as it is:
- it doesn't connect directly to the Kronos soundcard with Asio drivers - the Access TI does that
- exactly BECAUSE the Kronos has an extremely big an powerful OS for 9 engines, it is a waste of programming resources from my view just to mirror the original Kronos pages on the PC, without introducing usability improvements of the interface, and improving overview quality in a way some of us miss on the Kronos, for complex functions or complex synths like AL-1
- it offers no automation recording - like the Access TI plugin does
- it offers no recording of all the tracks in a Combi - while the TI plugin handles several tracks at a time.

I won't go into more detail concerning the sluggish data exhange, but there is not much to defend about the orginal version of the Kronos vsti from my view. If a plugin adds NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL to the functionality I have already, and I find it more convenient to set up a Kronos Combi and record it the old fashioned way (some combi standard midi/audio tracks thorugh my Asio soundcard), this tells enough - at least for me.

What has to be said to be fair though, is that the the sheer amount of Kronos values exhanged by sysex is gigantic, and the job to be done is huge. I don't know what the update will bring, but the fact of an update alone probably shows that Korg is serious about the editor and does not just seek kind of an "alibi edtor".

And to put the whole thing in proper context:
The Kronos is just a gorgeous piece of equipent, and even without a great VSTi so far, I use it more, and more enthusiastic, than any other keyboard I own.





T
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QuiRobinez
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
Shakil, I know it is part of your workflow to change patches and effects while a sequence is running to hear the changes in context.

But all synths I am aware of change effects as part of the patch/program. Can you tell me which synths keep effect settings while changing patches?


As far as i know, only the Virus TI can do this. Actually the Virus TI editor has a fantastic feature for that. You can lock sections in the editor when browsing through the presets. For example: If you like the filter envelope and the modulation matrix settings then you could lock those two areas, now every preset you choose will be played with those locked area's, which can dramaticly change the original sound.

In the Virus TI editor you can do this with every section ranging from the Oscs till the effects. It's very impressive in my opinion Smile
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QuiRobinez wrote:
Shakil wrote:
QuiRobinez wrote:
Shakil wrote:
jahrome wrote:
Kronos editor is terrible. Have you ever used the Editor for Motif series? Significantly better than the Kronos Editor which is a bad joke.


Yes, I have used Motif Editor..... it sucks big time. As soon as you select a different patch on a part your effects tweaks for that part are gone!!!!!!!!! try it.

i don't agree, the motif editor is a great editor.

of course your effect tweaks are gone when you change the sound for a part. This is because in the Motif the synth engine structure of the sounds includes the effect session.


And that's the flawed effects design on Motif.... useless! Fantom G followed this design, and fell on it's face as well.


hehehe, that's an opinion not a fact.

just out of interest, if effects are such a big issue for you, why don't you use external effects for those sounds, most producers in a DAW don't use effects in a synth because the external effects are most of the time of a better quality and can do more exotic things and more importantly, can be fully automated in the song.

That sounds like a good solution for you, why didn't you do it that way?


I don't have to... Korg workstations have effects architecture that closely resembles studio... IFX is separate from the program/patch. Roland had the same architecture until Fantom-X.....

Motif always had the flawed design.. and Fantom-G followed the suite...
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neomad
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Joined: 24 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QuiRobinez wrote:
Shakil wrote:
What's it in Motif Editor that you can not do on KRONOS editor? Give me one example. Then also compare the onboard screens on Motif, Virus and KRONOS, and then tell me which one need the software editor more?

Motif and Virus are one type of synthesizers. KRONOS has 9 synths. The editor lets you edit all 9 synths, correct?

It depends what you are using it for, when you use a lot with a DAW where you produce multiple songs at the same time, then full editing , automation and total recall are the keywords that are important when using editors.

The Motif editor and Virus ti editor has this all available in a 64 bits environment. Both editors also support complete latency compensation with their included audio paths.

Now ALL these things are missing in the kronos editor when you are a producer that uses a 64 bit environment (like all 'semi' professionals do).
There is no 64 bits support, no automation available, no internal audio routing through the VSTI, no total recall and definitly no possibility to change each sound to your liking in the project and store that for total recall purposes in a non destructive way.

When you take these things in consideration my opinion is that it's safe to say that on the computer integration area and DAW integration area the kronos editor is lightyears behind the competition.

Which is a really bad thing in 2012 where computer integration is a huge part of the acceptance of a synth in a production environment.

I love the kronos and it's functionality, but i also have to be honest that the integration solution is one that was available around 2005, but absolutely not acceptable anymore in 2012.

That doesn't mean it can't be used in a production environment, but you have to use it the old skool way and not the modern way. And my opinion is that the Kronos deserves more because it can be a gamechanger not only in functionality but also in the DAW market as soon as they takes these things up to the current standards and expectations of musicians.

But who knows, maybe the editor V2.0 will surprise us in a big way.


+1000
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:


To me, like to most of the other users I know, the Kronos VSTi is pretty useless as it is:
- it doesn't connect directly to the Kronos soundcard with Asio drivers - the Access TI does that
- exactly BECAUSE the Kronos has an extremely big an powerful OS for 9 engines, it is a waste of programming resources from my view just to mirror the original Kronos pages on the PC, without introducing usability improvements of the interface, and improving overview quality in a way some of us miss on the Kronos, for complex functions or complex synths like AL-1
- it offers no automation recording - like the Access TI plugin does
- it offers no recording of all the tracks in a Combi - while the TI plugin handles several tracks at a time.

Jim, all of these issues, that you can do for Access Ti and can not do in KRONOS editor is not because of the limitation of the editor, but limitation of the KRONOS architecture itself.

You can't modify programs from Combi/Song mode, you have to be in single program mode. That is why you don't get to record all tracks at once if you like to edit.

No atuomation recording.. can't you plugin virtul midi cable between the editor and kronos, and capture the sysex in DAW?

Connecting directly to KRONOS via ASIO drivers... but there are no ASIO drivers for KRONOS... and most of the time you will have not just KRONOS, but other gear as well, so you would be using an aduio interface any way. Since ASIO is single port, you won't get anything else into DAW.

Improving usability features, yes definitely.. that's a constant, it should always be improved. Nothing is perfect.
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Last edited by Shakil on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QuiRobinez wrote:
jimknopf wrote:
Shakil, I know it is part of your workflow to change patches and effects while a sequence is running to hear the changes in context.

But all synths I am aware of change effects as part of the patch/program. Can you tell me which synths keep effect settings while changing patches?


As far as i know, only the Virus TI can do this. Actually the Virus TI editor has a fantastic feature for that. You can lock sections in the editor when browsing through the presets. For example: If you like the filter envelope and the modulation matrix settings then you could lock those two areas, now every preset you choose will be played with those locked area's, which can dramaticly change the original sound.

In the Virus TI editor you can do this with every section ranging from the Oscs till the effects. It's very impressive in my opinion Smile


Roland workstations can do this the best. It can even record the tweaks you make to any synth parameter while the sequencer is running/recording. Motif XS and XF can do this to some extent using the mix voices, but the seuqncer has to stop.
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QuiRobinez
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:

Roland workstations can do this the best. It can even record the tweaks you make to any synth parameter while the sequencer is running/recording.

i didn't know this, i have no experience with the Fantom suite. Well i've tried it for a limited time in the studio, but i didn't like the Fantom sound which is a kind of personal taste of course.

But i do like the Roland Vsynth GT and the Jupiter 80 sound, both are great but aren't workstations.

So has everyone his own personal favorites Smile
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
Shakil, I know it is part of your workflow to change patches and effects while a sequence is running to hear the changes in context.

But all synths I am aware of change effects as part of the patch/program. Can you tell me which synths keep effect settings while changing patches?

To me, like to most of the other users I know, the Kronos VSTi is pretty useless as it is:
- it doesn't connect directly to the Kronos soundcard with Asio drivers - the Access TI does that
- exactly BECAUSE the Kronos has an extremely big an powerful OS for 9 engines, it is a waste of programming resources from my view just to mirror the original Kronos pages on the PC, without introducing usability improvements of the interface, and improving overview quality in a way some of us miss on the Kronos, for complex functions or complex synths like AL-1
- it offers no automation recording - like the Access TI plugin does
- it offers no recording of all the tracks in a Combi - while the TI plugin handles several tracks at a time.

I won't go into more detail concerning the sluggish data exhange, but there is not much to defend about the orginal version of the Kronos vsti from my view. If a plugin adds NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL to the functionality I have already, and I find it more convenient to set up a Kronos Combi and record it the old fashioned way (some combi standard midi/audio tracks thorugh my Asio soundcard), this tells enough - at least for me.

What has to be said to be fair though, is that the the sheer amount of Kronos values exhanged by sysex is gigantic, and the job to be done is huge. I don't know what the update will bring, but the fact of an update alone probably shows that Korg is serious about the editor and does not just seek kind of an "alibi edtor".

And to put the whole thing in proper context:
The Kronos is just a gorgeous piece of equipent, and even without a great VSTi so far, I use it more, and more enthusiastic, than any other keyboard I own.


T


Looks like I overwrote my previous message.

Jim, your own KRONOS keeps the effects intact while changing the program on a part. You don't lose the tweaks, and even better you can save effects presets and copy IFX from one to another.

The issue of editing patches while in sequencer is different. The slugishness of the KRONOS editor is due to the fact that the editor has to keep thousands of programs in memory, rather than just the 16 in the current combi/song, like the Virus editor. On Virus editor, you load programs into parts from file. Then from that point you directly edit/modify the programs in the performance.
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jahrome
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:
What's it in Motif Editor that you can not do on KRONOS editor?

Actually work?

I am sure there is a good reason there is a jump from V1 to V2.
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jahrome wrote:
Shakil wrote:
What's it in Motif Editor that you can not do on KRONOS editor?

Actually work?

I am sure there is a good reason there is a jump from V1 to V2.


Yup, you need an editor software for Motif to actually work! You can't do everything from the keyboard itself. Wink
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