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kronos editor 2.0
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qui,
yes, the lock feature in the Virus is great, but what I meant is that no synth I know has a mode of keeping all the effect settings of the present patch while browsing through other patches. You can achieve this blocking one by one setting in the TI structure though, and it's indeed great for exploring sounds.

Shakil,
the Fantoms allow recording automation, but I don't remember browsing through patches while keeping one effect setting. Have I forgotten anything?

I don't think it is impossible principally to do Kronos patch/track editing and write automation to a software sequencer. If any (or nearly any) value in the Kronos is available via sysex, the mode should not prevent access to the parameters from an external VSTi/editor, no matter how the Kronos OS is organised within the Kronos. I always thought that exactly this external access would allow procedures not available directly within the current Kronos OS, and that this would be one of the benefits of such a tool. But maybe I'm wrong: I'm no programmer or technician.
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:


Shakil,
the Fantoms allow recording automation, but I don't remember browsing through patches while keeping one effect setting. Have I forgotten anything?



Fantom-G changes insert effects, like Motifs, that was the problem with it and my complaint. Fantom-X and prior did not have insert effects, just MFXs, so it was not an issue.

KRONOS and other KORG workstations do not change insert effects while browsing pataches in combi/song. Which is the better architecture for effects routing. But, KORGs don't allow editing of programs from combi/song, which causes the editor to be unuseful.
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jahrome
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:
jahrome wrote:
Shakil wrote:
What's it in Motif Editor that you can not do on KRONOS editor?

Actually work?

I am sure there is a good reason there is a jump from V1 to V2.


Yup, you need an editor software for Motif to actually work! You can't do everything from the keyboard itself. Wink

Obviously...I prefer the Kronos keyboard. I am talking about its terrible editor I waited a year for. Anyway....V2 is coming and I just prey that it can actually be used unlike the current version which looks/feels like bad freeware.
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Shakil
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jahrome wrote:
Shakil wrote:
jahrome wrote:
Shakil wrote:
What's it in Motif Editor that you can not do on KRONOS editor?

Actually work?

I am sure there is a good reason there is a jump from V1 to V2.


Yup, you need an editor software for Motif to actually work! You can't do everything from the keyboard itself. Wink

Obviously...I prefer the Kronos keyboard. I am talking about its terrible editor I waited a year for. Anyway....V2 is coming and I just prey that it can actually be used unlike the current version which looks/feels like bad freeware.



It probably will not be much more useful than now, doesn't matter how good it will look, since the issue, IMHO, is the KRONOS program mode only editing architecture. So unless you want to always use the editor in Program mode, there isn't really any program editing other than effects, routing, splits, and mixing.
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:
jahrome wrote:
Shakil wrote:
jahrome wrote:
Shakil wrote:
What's it in Motif Editor that you can not do on KRONOS editor?

Actually work?

I am sure there is a good reason there is a jump from V1 to V2.


Yup, you need an editor software for Motif to actually work! You can't do everything from the keyboard itself. Wink

Obviously...I prefer the Kronos keyboard. I am talking about its terrible editor I waited a year for. Anyway....V2 is coming and I just prey that it can actually be used unlike the current version which looks/feels like bad freeware.


It probably will not be much more useful than now, doesn't matter how good it will look, since the issue, IMHO, is the KRONOS program mode only editing architecture. So unless you want to always use the editor in Program mode, there isn't really any program editing other than effects, routing, splits, and mixing.


It's a revised repost of me from an earlier page in this thread but the current architecture of a Korg would make it possible (though a bit tricky):


- The editor makes a backup of the (at most maximum) 16 programs used by the combi/sequence.
- Edit any of of these 16 programs at the same time (this is possible by saving the currently edited on the Kronos when switching to another timbre).
- When finished, save everything to the Kronos (although probably all programs except one have been saved)
- However, and this is tricky: when you want to undo the change, all other (max) 15 programs need to be restored to (in the first step a backup is made). This should not be forgotten and should be done manually.

Another solution:
- Let the editor copy the max. 16 programs to a different location (beware of different types of program banks)
- Do as written in the original solution
- When finished, copy the programs over the originals.
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1jordyzzz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laste7 wrote:

"Buying an expensive machine, and then finding out you can't use all the features for it...? " --> Your fault, if you are not able to collect the informations provided before you buy...don't blame Korg for that


well slow down here... i think even by looking at collected info doesn't mean that the user is capable of using kronos at first... i too didn't know how to use it at all on the first time. you need to learn because kronos is a complex instrument... there's no one to blame.
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1jordyzzz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakil wrote:


You can't modify programs from Combi/Song mode, you have to be in single program mode. That is why you don't get to record all tracks at once if you like to edit.

i think it's the editor is to blame here... kronos should be capable of recording all 16 sounds in a combi... the USB allows that. it's the editor that i think cannot connect kronos system into a daw.

Shakil wrote:

Improving usability features, yes definitely.. that's a constant, it should always be improved. Nothing is perfect.


Nothing is perfect indeed
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SoundQuest
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the exception of a Combi/Song's program Tone Adjust parameters, to edit a Program you must be in Program mode. This is how the Kronos is designed. There is no way to access Program parameters while the instrument is in Combi or Song mode.
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Laste7
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1jordyzzz wrote:
Laste7 wrote:

"Buying an expensive machine, and then finding out you can't use all the features for it...? " --> Your fault, if you are not able to collect the informations provided before you buy...don't blame Korg for that


well slow down here... i think even by looking at collected info doesn't mean that the user is capable of using kronos at first... i too didn't know how to use it at all on the first time. you need to learn because kronos is a complex instrument... there's no one to blame.


Sorry, was in a bad mood this day Smile
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BobTheDog
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoundQuest wrote:
With the exception of a Combi/Song's program Tone Adjust parameters, to edit a Program you must be in Program mode. This is how the Kronos is designed. There is no way to access Program parameters while the instrument is in Combi or Song mode.


Hi,

Does you mean you cannot send the program sysex on different midi channels to alter programs when it is in a combo/seq mode?

Thanks

Andy
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoundQuest wrote:
With the exception of a Combi/Song's program Tone Adjust parameters, to edit a Program you must be in Program mode. This is how the Kronos is designed. There is no way to access Program parameters while the instrument is in Combi or Song mode.


Have you read Michel's proposals above?

I'm curious to see the changes in the editor from version 1 to version 2, since such a huge version jump normally is only justified by substantial positive changes.
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vinylwizard



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole program editing (or lack thereof!) is an incredibly annoying limitation but I’m trying to work round it. Does anyone know if there is at least a way of jumping to the program you are working on within the combi/seq mode when hitting ‘program’. It seems to take you to a different program?!

I have bought my Kronos on a 7 day period (or at least I have 7 days if I want to return it…) I’d be loathed to get rid of it as it sounds absolutely amazing but I’ll be using it with an external sequencer and therefore likely always in seq mode…I need to get my workflow right or there is no benefit to use over my rackmount virus ti and akai sampler! I was hoping it could act as my drum sampler and a kick ass fm/va/wavetable/vector synth..obviously it can but I’m concerned I’m going to spent half my time being frustrated! : (

Geoff
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QuiRobinez
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vinylwizard wrote:
The whole program editing (or lack thereof!) is an incredibly annoying limitation but I’m trying to work round it. Does anyone know if there is at least a way of jumping to the program you are working on within the combi/seq mode when hitting ‘program’. It seems to take you to a different program?!

I have bought my Kronos on a 7 day period (or at least I have 7 days if I want to return it…) I’d be loathed to get rid of it as it sounds absolutely amazing but I’ll be using it with an external sequencer and therefore likely always in seq mode…I need to get my workflow right or there is no benefit to use over my rackmount virus ti and akai sampler! I was hoping it could act as my drum sampler and a kick ass fm/va/wavetable/vector synth..obviously it can but I’m concerned I’m going to spent half my time being frustrated! : (

If your workflow is that you MUST HAVE real time full edit control on all 16 channels then the Kronos is not the synth for you. It simply doesn't support this. It would be nice if it was possible, but it isn't.

but you have to ask yourself, if it's absolutely necessary to have full edit control. In reality most of the time people always change the same parameters when they want to modify a sound. Now this is possible through Tone control. There you can select from a large list of key parameters which parameters are mapped to knobs and faders on your kronos. You can do this for all 16 channels in sequencer mode and the modifications are stored in the Combi (use combi instead of Sequencer mode, because then you would have them stored in the kronos instead of loading them each time).

Now if you want to create a completely new sound then here's what i do:
- i record a loop of the song i'm working on, which i play over and over again (in cubase this can be done with the freeze button which instantly creates a loop from the instrument you work with).
- Now you hear the complete combi running through a wav loop
- now create the midi part on midi channel 1 you want to use for that new sound in your daw so you have a sound running through the kronos
- press program mode
- create a new sound on midi channel 1 and when you are done save that to a program slot.
- press the combi button again and select that new sound in the combi mode on it's own timbre
- change the midi channel in your daw to the timbre channel
- unfreeze the loop (so that you have access to the midi parts again.

Done, in reality this works flawlessly once you adapted your workflow to this. The best part is that this works with any synth or vsti.

In my Programming AL-1 Lead i've did the exact same. You hear the 'freezed combi' in the background and when i program the AL-1 Lead sound it sounds like if all parts are coming from the Kronos. and when i was done i added the new sound to the combi and unfreezed the combi part.

See the example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDA3k3O9ibE

Every daw can record a loop, so it doesn't really matter which daw you uses. But this method works flawlessly.

But you have to decide for yourself, if the tone control parameters aren't enough (and there are really a lot to choose from) and you don't want to work with the workflow as mentioned above then my guess is that it's the best to return the kronos, because full realtime programming in a combi or sequencer can't be done. Although i consider the tone control as a really good solution when you want to change sounds on the fly in a non destructive way.

Here's an example where i used on of my combi's and where i use the tone controls function to change the sounds of that combi in realtime. I'm modifying FM parameters, cutoff, resonance, LFO's and drive parameters to name a few.

See this example over here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKES-PayurE

I'm absolutely sure that for live performances the tone control settings are enough to make the performance interesting.
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vinylwizard



Joined: 19 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey thanks. Yes, I'm hoping tone controls are enough. It's a shame that lose the nice graphical interface (ms20 and polysix but there you go). The freeze function is a good idea. I use an octatrack so I might try setting up with that and see how my workflow is.

Thanks for tip of using combi rather than seq. I'll give that a go. One question still remains though please- is there a way to jump to the program you have selected in combi when you hit 'program' mode? I know that combi makes non-destructive edits to the program but is there a way to auto-locate to the program?
Cheers
Geoff
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vinylwizard



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ps. forgot to add, a BIG thank you for all your videos Qui. Really really useful and seeing what the kronos offers sound-design wise was a big part of the inspiration for getting the kronos.
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