Korg Forums

[jerrythek]

I thought of posting Busch's excellent example of phase cancellation issues, but that occurs more significantly when you sample each individual drawbar and then use those as building blocks to create a new registration. If you sample an already setup drawbar "voicing" I don't think the issue is as severe as his example. There will still be problems, but not as bad as creating sampled individual drawbars... The same problem exists in any module (like the Peavey, and the Emu, I believe) because of this.

If it were, the same phenomenon would occur on every HD-1-based organ. Which it doesn't to the degree demonstrated above.

Personally, I think the CX3 engine can get you there, perhaps with an outboard Leslie sim. But as an example of a dissenting vote, Jack Hotop and I were discussing this, and he felt that for really strong rock and prog tunes, when he plays with a loud band he finds the HD-1 organs simply cut through better, and stand out with the power that he needs. But he gets what he needs from the existing Programs, he didn't need to go sample an organ custom to get there.

Jerry

[jerrythek]

[jeremykeys]

[quote="jerrythek"]

[mymusic42]

Thanks for the insights and warnings. I will touch base in the next month or so with my progress, direction, etc

[jeremykeys]

Merry Christmas and I wish you the best of luck with finding your perfect organ sound.
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[jerrythek]

[burningbusch]

Jerry brings up a good point about the phasing being much more of an issue when you're creating the drawbar setting with individual tones, as I did on the Yamaha. To get a feel for what a sampled drawbar setting sounds like, just go to an initialized HD-1 program and change the multisample from the default piano to something like E.Organ-Full. You might hear a bit of phasing but it's not bad at all--actually it should be perfectly acceptable.

A few things regarding sampling of the B3. 1) You're probably going to have a fair amount of noise that gets recorded--just the nature of the beast. The problem is if you don't apply software noise reduction after the fact, that noise is going to multiply with every note you play on the sampled instrument. 2) You might keep life simple and record let's say 10 seconds of every note you decide to sample. You can then worry about looping at another time. The instrument will be somewhat larger in the Kronos but it really doesn't matter with disk streaming, it's still going to be very small.

Busch.
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[ccmacdon]

MYmusic42,

I read through the thread and the one thing that I didn't see was whether or not you had tried the new KRS-06 organs.. (you said you tried 2.1 but I don't think you said anything about the new sounds).. From my perspective, you haven't tried the new CX3 engine unless you've tried those sounds.. Those sounds are so good that I'm not sure I would bother even using my neo Ventilator, or my GSI Burn leslie sims!

I am pretty fussy about my Hammond sound, and I've owned almost every clone that's ever been produced over the last 10 years.. and the CX3 engine version 2.1 sounds awesome... Now that said, you may have a VERY unique and/or specific sound that you're looking for. However, if you're that fussy about the sound, you're NOT likely to be happy with a static sample (by that I mean lacking the ability to work drawbars and other controls such as percussion and C/V in real time).

My suggestion is to get the KRS-06 sounds loaded in, if you haven't already done so, and try those before you go off on a tangent and start sampling your own organ sounds.. ALSO, have you thought about providing a link to a recording of the sound that you're looking for? Perhaps someone else can suggest how you might tweak the CX3 engine to get close to that sound?

Sampling a Hammond organ is going to be a lot of work and it's highly unlikely that you're going to get a sound that you will be happy with. By the way, tweaking the CX3 engine will be a LOT easier than working with the sampling engine.. and I bet dollars to doughnuts that you'll get a lot better results, just tweaking the CX3 engine a bit!
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Craig MacDonald

[Scott]

[ccmacdon]

[mymusic42]

I am away from my Kronos this week, but when I get back I will take another listen to the KRS-06 organs. I am pretty sure I listened to them when I did the update and my general thought was yes this sounds better than the old organs, but still not what I am looking for. But I will listen again.

Perhaps I will post an mp3 of what I am looking for as well, as well. That's a good idea.

My general feel towards the CX3 engine (and most of the other clones I have owned over the years) is that they do a good job of organ emulation until I come to the all stops out 888888888 registration. That is thin compared to a real Hammond (to me) and that is the one I was going to sample.

I fully understand the appeal and versatility of changing drawbars on the fly, but having an all stops out sample that is fat and full enough for me would just make my day!

I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for everyone's comments and ideas.

[geoelectro]

With an 888888888 setting, there are many tones that come from one source that are shared on different keys. For example,

Middle C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-25- -44- -37- -49- -56- -61- -65- - -68- -73

G above Mid C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-32- -51- -44- -56- -63- -68- --72- -75- - 80

C octave above Mid C
---DB -16 -5 1/3 -8 -- -4 -2 2/3 -2 -1 1/3 -1 3/5 -1
Tone#-37- -56- -49- -61- -68- -73- --77- - 80- - 85

As you can see, playing the mid C and the G above, there are three tones that would be repeated in sampling where in a Hammond (Clone) they would be shared.

Add the octave and you now have about 12 notes. That's just playing three keys!

When these notes are shared, there are no phase differences since it's the same source. When these notes are sampled, they now become separate sources whose phase relationship varies depending on how they were sampled and more importantly when the key is pressed.

In my experience the interesting thing is when the sampled Hammond sound is run through effects, that's when these phase issues are exaggerated. Most effects use phase shifting of some sort or another and react badly to the phase differences of the sampling.

Someone mentioned that other sounds with more harmonics seem to do better when sampling. A piano has over 200 strings and they are separate tone generators whose phase is always changing. In fact, they are tuned with stretch tuning making them even more independent of each other. Sampling each note in that situation doesn't add any phase issues. In a Hammond, the tone generator runs constantly and the keys just turn the sound on and off. Sampling here loses the fixed phase relationship of the generator due to the nature of sampling.

Geo
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[jerrythek]