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Derek Cook · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:58 pm Post subject:

Latency is a strange thing as you need to understand it in context. In music I guess it depends on what you are playing. In my "day job" we measure object position in space and time. Latency of measurement on its own is meaningless. If you are measuring the position of a static object you can have measurement latency of days and nobody will notice the induced error (subject to continental drift if you are on a different tectonic plate and your measurement interval is years and you need better than centimetre accuracy Wink

) . Measure a moving slug and you need to be a little more precise, measure a formula F1 car racing around a track and you need to be better again. So with a music example, if all you play is slow pads, you will notice latency effects less than something that is more percussive (like guitar). there is of course a point where you come to the physical limits of human perception and the processing cycle of the meatware, but there is no one universal threshold, and some people are more sensitive than others.

And with experience with an instrument you are familiar with you will also find yourself compensating for latency in the same way that Cathedral organ players have to cope with pretty high dimensional latency coupled with any internal mechanical delay (just one example). I used to run NI B4II as my Hammond organ and set the audio sound card latency high enough on an old PC (also doing backing tracks and a light show) so it would not glitch. My mates could not play it in time, but I could as I had learnt compensate for the delay. Not saying it is ideal, but....

Hope those ramblings make sense! It's been a long day.....
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SanderXpander · Platinum Member Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860

Sorry Bachus, I can definitely hear (or rather feel) latency of 11ms. At 10 it's pretty hard to play in time. On guitar too by the way, I don't know any professional player who'd be ok with something as ludicrously high as 20ms. That's the equivalent of standing seven meters away from your amp. I'm sure it happens sometimes but most players like to stay a bit closer. I've also had singers complain from the booth when the round trip was about 8ms, some singers are very sensitive to the comb filtering that you get because they get the direct sound through their body and the delayed sound on their headphones.

So sorry, but from experience I can tell you that in most situations, latency needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY lower than 20ms for normal playing/recording circumstances. Definitely under 10 if you want stuff to be tight.

EvilDragon · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:38 pm Post subject:

vEddY · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:50 pm Post subject:

Sorry, but (for a player) there's no context in latency when you're playing live or recording. It's just a latency, and it's usually annoying as hell. And latency when playing Kronos is noticeable, I'm afraid. When I'm playing it, sometimes I get the feeling that it's worse then on OASYS, which never gave me that feeling. Strange. Especially on some of the more "intensive" engines (ms20, mod-7).

We're not talking nuclear physics here, nor playing "behind beat". Even if we were talking about that, usually that's something that a player wants to "control him/herself".

10ms ...... A metaphor might work here - 10ms is millions of dollars in Formula 1. 10ms is already a lot of latency, at least for me.
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SeedyLee · Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:20 am Post subject:

amit · Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:37 am Post subject:

12 ms of latency can be a lot, depending on what you are plying. I had to give up on guitar amp Sims and return to tube amps because I could not live with. The latency even at the minimal settings, yes after a time you will stop hearing that, but you can still feel it. And it can affect your playing.

For a test try a fast compressor on a snare try adjusting the attack settings you'd be surprised what all transients shape up like.
Latency changes the response of an instrument, you can adapt to it to a certain extent.
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Bachus · Platinum Member Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 3126

EvilDragon · Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject:

Bachus · Platinum Member Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 3126

SanderXpander · Platinum Member Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860

My figures are accurate with headphone playing and my RME is pretty accurate (to within .1ms) about its reported audio latency figures. I've never heard anyone include the time it takes to press a key and have midi be generated, usually this is negligible because the midi data footprint is so light. And yes obviously there is some latency (if you want to call it that) in an acoustic instrument as well but nobody uses those figures, what's useful is comparing how much latency various computer setups add, not how big the latency difference is between the sound of an Alpenhorn reaching your ears or the sound of a violin reaching your ears.

Jan1 · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 765

It looks like there's been a perceptible latency also in the news for keys which seems to have migrated from the Messe, where it was expected, to the Superbooth event which will take place in the coming week.
Expected are quite a few announcements for new products from KORG/ARP, Roland/Aira, Novation, Behringer, Yamaha, Arturia, Modor among others, some of which *could* be very interesting.