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Is Kronos on it's way out?
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GregC
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Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 6695
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
I've made the point for the past 10 years that I'd love to see AU /VST developments with Karma; with a far superior GUI interface.

I appreciate it's hugely complex and capable - but - few if any of us are using more than perhaps 5 - 10% of it's capabilities; and with equally complex documentation, it's a challenge.

So I see it as this gargantuan technology that never really got going because nobody ever understood it or how to manage it.

And as amazing as a Karmafied Combi is - nobody writes music using them - they are great for demos -but - there needs' to be a far more integrated way of using GE's in an arrangement of a song _you_ are writing, with visual clarity as to what each variant of a GE is doing on screen. It ALL has to be editable, manageable at all times for composers who believe in their own work.



Good post, Kevin.

I agree with your premise that Karma is not well understood, or 'we' are scratching only 5-10% of its capability.

Over the yrs, I have talked to a dozen keyboardists who have the Karma software. They gave up on it, or it simply sits as a big project, due to their own
subjective circumstances.

Just a minor point. Likely its about 'context' of your statement (nobody writes music ...using Karma combis).

I am up to 30 original songs. Easily half contain 1-3 Karma parts, mostly Karma drum scenes. I selectively skim the top of Karma patterns. Thats all I require. Karma is spicy, to use a metaphor. Its not the main course for what I require.

I do not use Karma as an 'arranger ' or perform a Combi with 10
Karma parts, with all the necessary button pushing.

My gig is not about understanding 80-90% of Karma. Or even 60% of Kronos.
I don't require that depth and my time is 90% creating music/crafting original material. To slightly improve my playing skill is a big project.

As a realist, what we have in Kronos/Karma is all there is(not complaining).
While , Kronos/Karma are wonderful tools for what I require,
there are approaching limits. Of the 1100 GE's (i think thats the total),
maybe 150 fit what I create. Yes, I can mangle a GE. No problem there.

I understand that many Kronos owners have it as a priority to dive deep into the many capabilities, i.e., Karma, sampling, All 9 engines, etc etc.
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karmathanever
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Joined: 12 Jan 2004
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Location: Australia (Oz !!)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned the original Karma, M3 and now Kronos and I am still struggling at times with KARMA on the keyboard, let alone the software.
Don't get me wrong, I love what it does!!!

I tried hard to learn the Kronos well and was excited (a long while back) that there was a full set of 3rd party video tutorials on it.
A musician colleague told me about the tutorial set and he consequently bought it.
Unfortunately, when we were looking through it, it was a bit like the "ET (Entertainment Tonight)" TV show where they constantly say "Coming up...", "After the break....", "Stay tuned....." and never really get to the point.

ProAudioDVDs have produced some excellent tutorials but sadly nothing on Kronos

I believe that a great set of tutorials could push Kronos into another market level.
I purchased and tried the Karma software but I, too, had to give up.

Cheers

Pete Very Happy
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Mr_SamDoogie
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Joined: 01 Jan 2014
Posts: 183
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Just pondering here. Reply with quote

So I'm just a bit curious reading about the Karma experience to some of you fooks. For the record I'm one of them do a loop kinda home musician which is a bit to static to call making music.

I saw Karma in action in video's like the one with Jordan Rudess at Kraft M one of my favorite, And understood its not a fixed pattern, something is happening here differently. Every sound is moving with and in conjunction of a rhythm. I can't do this with a sequencer.

Have some tried to follow the video courses done by karma-labs to lessen the difficulty mastering and what the experience after that.
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GregC
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Just pondering here. Reply with quote

Mr_SamDoogie wrote:
So I'm just a bit curious reading about the Karma experience to some of you fooks. For the record I'm one of them do a loop kinda home musician which is a bit to static to call making music.

I saw Karma in action in video's like the one with Jordan Rudess at Kraft M one of my favorite, And understood its not a fixed pattern, something is happening here differently. Every sound is moving with and in conjunction of a rhythm. I can't do this with a sequencer.

Have some tried to follow the video courses done by karma-labs to lessen the difficulty mastering and what the experience after that.


I am putting this on Korg. There were no Karma updates on Kronos.

This is also my opinion, FWIW.

In fact, I vaguely recall , us Kronos owners got a prior version of Karma vs whatever current Karma was available in 2011.

I think highly of Stephen. I would bet some Benjamins he would have upgraded Karma on Kronos , if given a fair opportunity.

This is ancient history. Nothing can be done to improve this great feature on Kronos. Its still very useful, but we will never know what could have been.
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KARMA can produce fixed patterns, but that is not its primary aim. It is so much more than an arpeggiator. The Kronos Parameter Guide has some 65 pages devoted to explaining KARMA, whilst the Operations Guide also has a KARMA section. Both are worthwhile bedtime reading, if you want to get to grips with it.

From the Karma Labs website: "KARMA is a patented algorithmic MIDI data generating technology that takes input notes and controller movements and generates complex musical phrases and effects. KARMA provides independent real-time control over various aspects of a musical phrase, such as rhythm, duration, accents, chord density, pitch bending, tonal variation, panning, repeats, randomization, etc. Some people refer to it as "an arpeggiator on steroids," although even that description doesn't do it justice. It's simply the most advanced music generation technology available!"

In reality, KARMA is great. There are a few Kronos Programs and Combis, where the KARMA factory setup will definitely not make the charts. But those can be improved upon, and there are other examples where it is effectively a "live" band in a box.

Whilst repeating patterns can be done with a looper, or using RPPR, and very effectively so, KARMA goes way beyond what can be done with these approaches.

.


Last edited by voip on Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mr_SamDoogie
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An arpegio on steroids so the mistake is thinking Karma is an arpeggio is just not that. Honestly arpeggio must mean the same to any one else using a basic level of just up-down arpeggio I do.

Can imagine to get lost easily if you don't consider the many parameters like accent , duration, pitch , chord density etc in you're music composition , sound design or combi. Karma should do that automatically.

That is pro level stuff going beyond 4/4 measure when I'm recording something. I would have and I am having a ton of questions how to utilize Karma on a simple loop.
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In honor of the Groove and to all whom surrender to it, We say Thank You. And we take it Back.

Korg MW1, Casio PX5S, XW-G1, Roland JD-Xi,Yamaha Montage 7, VST, Sonar X3 Producer.Handfull of IOs Apps iMPC,Animoog : Korg IMS-20,Module, IM1, Gadget etc.
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GregC
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_SamDoogie wrote:

Can imagine to get lost easily if you don't consider the many parameters like accent , duration, pitch , chord density etc in you're music composition , sound design or combi. Karma should do that automatically.

That is pro level stuff going beyond 4/4 measure when I'm recording something. I would have and I am having a ton of questions how to utilize Karma on a simple loop.


what/how I use it as a songwriter; My original songs don't rely completely on Karma. But I like to use it as it fits in a part or a track. Easily half of my 30 originals have some element of Karma.

I run 10-15 tracks on an original. 1 track can splash a Karma GE on piano. And use Karma drum scenes to increase percussion dynamics on another track/midi channel. But it is not a Karma song. Karma is part of the ' band '.

I find Karma to be a great feature on Kronos. I don't find it necessary to understand Karma in depth. I know just enough to make it fit and spice up
my original songs.
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jeremykeys
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Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 2938
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin, my heart goes out to you. I too accidentally erased a combi that used a Karma program that I made. As you did, I stupidly didn't back it up. The rhythmic pattern is integral to a song that we recorded on our album. But now I can't reproduce it live.
Don't I feel like the moron now!

I to think that Karma is amazing and I also think it needs a far bet GUI. What I'd like to see; and I'm only speaking for myself here; is perhaps something that could be done on a bigger screen. Maybe an iPad for example.
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