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Using Kronos to create expansions for other samplers

 
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jahrome
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
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Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: Using Kronos to create expansions for other samplers Reply with quote

I want to use my Korg Kronos for sound design with the purpose of creating expansions for 3rd party samplers that I can sell.

I would like to create original Combos and Programs onboard the Kronos. Then multisample my Combos and Programs to create expansions for other samplers.

What is the legality of doing this? What can and/or can't I do?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I follow. I will rephrase your business idea.

Fairly sure you can do what you propose for home use.

As you can imagine, its when you go into commerce , sell on the Internet, start advertising and making product claims- thats the slippery slope of legality for your idea.

Here it is in ordinary terms- you are presenting your skill as a value add reseller. You are taking a well known product, altering it, making it interesting, and expanding its usefulness on other equipment platforms, that can take advantage of your work or product. IOW, play your edited resample on a Motif or whatever keyboard or device that can read and play your resample.

Your target audience ( I assume you have considered this)
is the Non-Kronos owner who would like to enjoy your edited Kronos sounds
in their sampler, etc.

Is this accurate ?
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jahrome
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Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The target audience is not important. The issue is the legality of doing this.

I have been having this discussion on another platform. The 'consensus' there was that if I used a Kronos' synth engine that doesn't use samples to create new sounds and multi-sample them into another sampler....this is legal.

But if I attempt to create a Combo/Program from Kronos' sampled waveforms and sample these into a sampler with the intention to sell...this may be illegal.

So I came here to seek anyone knowledgeable that can add to the discussion.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jahrome wrote:
The target audience is not important. The issue is the legality of doing this.

I have been having this discussion on another platform. The 'consensus' there was that if I used a Kronos' synth engine that doesn't use samples to create new sounds and multi-sample them into another sampler....this is legal.

But if I attempt to create a Combo/Program from Kronos' sampled waveforms and sample these into a sampler with the intention to sell...this may be illegal.

So I came here to seek anyone knowledgeable that can add to the discussion.


I thought there was some business intent. "Sell "

Anyway, I think you have to determine which sounds are " Korg Proprietary " and what the terms of use are. Likely there terms of use is buried in the docs we accepted when we bought a Kronos.

Seems like this involves a bunch of research to determine what is legally proper.

Maybe you should write to Korg directly. That should be more accurate vs getting advice on the Internet.
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KK
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about contacting Korg directly about this. They will tell you if sampling/reselling programs which only use Korg EXi sounds is legal or not.

For sure, it is not legal in many countries to use samples without permission and/or resell them. One extreme example is that in certain countries/states, legal people go in public places to distribute copyright infringements to owners just because bands are playing songs or pieces protected by copyright live.

Certain Kronos programs like "On the Run" use a purposely modified note sequence... Maybe to make sure it is not considered plagiarism or copyright infringement ? That would be a question I would ask Korg people.

I also remember an excellent sample set offered here for free a few years ago, which ended up being removed because it happened to be taken from another source and this, even if apparently the person recreating it did not know.

So in short, be careful and talk to people who actually work in the copyright domain. And what applies in one country or state can be totally different in another.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a link to Korg Website for kronos Factory set license agreement.

https://www.korg.com/us/support/download/software/0/79/3039/

It shows the factory sound sets being covered as part of the software.
The factory shipped kronos comes with three DVD disc to restore the system.
This is the software package as a whole. It includes the factory sound set and all of it is under license.
Read the license agreement in the link above.

It makes clear that a kronos purchaser is granted the right to use. And goes on to specify that the reference to “Program” where restricions apply, are for “Object code”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_code

So the software does include the factory sound files. So i have to play it safe and assume sounds are also implied in the agreement.
Files is the key word and that includes “data files”. Look where it says “data” files in the agreement. It makes sure it grants use of data files to make derivatives of it, but specifies “Object data” when it goes into restrictions over copy right material. Also disclaims third party sounds because they may have their own special non korg based restrictions. Be sure to stick to sounds on the factory restoration disk or in the unaltered factory files only.

So the real restrictions focus on the software as per “object code”. Source code is likely tied to the open source Linux -which is free for all.
data files include samples and patterns.

Korg has always made the preset sounds and patterns non exclusively owned by all who buy into korg by purchasing the device. You can take the sound and sell it freely in a composed song. But the rights to the sounds are not yours to grant, only yours to be granted by korg.
If it is a sound design device such as Kronos, then you can take internal factory sounds and work them into derivative sounds designed and still call them your sounds. You paid korg for them when you paid korg for the device.

Now, trying to own them exclusively is not an option. You are less risk if you stick to doing as you please with the sounds, and not trying to own them exclusively just because you customized or altered a factory sound.

“Non exclusive” use was specified in the agreement, over all that is granted the purchaser.
So if you sell the sounds you altered or layered in kronos, you may have issues trying to make claims against anyone who buys your sound and does the same, alter and resell, with your version.
Also, you cannot grant the rights of use you are granted by korg and thus you cannot sell a korg sound with the same korg rights included.
Korg specified in the agreement that the use rights are granted only to purchaser and the rights belong only to korg.

I am not an expert but i know how to understand the agreement i entered and i think it safe to play it along the lines that you cannot sell it with the rights included. Selling is a type of use, use to make money, but that gets neutralizd to good extent with not being able to grant use rights to others or claim it as your exclusive property. It still all remains korg’s rights and you are mereley granted co-ownership that is limited to use as you please. But doing anything that exercises rights to it, such as granting ownership to others, is not allowed and that would be implied in selling unless people are out there willing to buy on the conditions of not having rights to use or own what they are buying. Just buy it to listen to what you did to the sound in the same way they would buy a song to hear and the song uses korg sounds to sing.
So- you cannot grant those rights, you can only have those rights for yourself. You own the sounds, the devices and use, but not the rights to grant to others or take away from others.

If you made a unique song, pattern or sound, yes that can belong to you with all rights for you to grant and take away. But a korg factory sound is free to use 100%, where sale of it is complicated by not being free to grant the same use rights to your buyers.

You can sell the sounds but only as sounds to listen to and not to use. It is how songs are made and sold using korg sounds all the time.


Last edited by 19naia on Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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KK
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

19naia wrote:
Now, trying to own them exclusively is not an option.

Korg specified in the agreement that the use rights are granted only to purchaser and the rights belong only to korg.

Thanks 19naia for that post,

It actually makes complete sense. I happen to also work part time in the translation field and where I live, every time I translate a book, I have to sign copyright papers which specify similar rules.

In short, because I transform something (a text written in a given language, instead of a given Kronos sound) into something else (a new text in another language, similar to a modified Kronos sound), I therefore am considered an author (similar to a Kronos sound "designer"), but I have no rights whatsoever on my own translated work, because this text (following the analogy, the modified Korg sound) remains entirely the property of the publisher and author of the original work (or Korg, if we talk about a factory sound). This because the publisher had to initially ask permission to the author of the original text/book to translate it and then buy according copyrights (and those are very expensive) so he could sell it in another language.

So again, it makes sense that similar copyright laws apply to protect texts, music and even sounds. Interesting topic.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KK wrote:
19naia wrote:
Now, trying to own them exclusively is not an option.

Korg specified in the agreement that the use rights are granted only to purchaser and the rights belong only to korg.

Thanks 19naia for that post,

It actually makes complete sense. I happen to also work part time in the translation field and where I live, every time I translate a book, I have to sign copyright papers which specify similar rules.

In short, because I transform something (a text written in a given language, instead of a given Kronos sound) into something else (a new text in another language, similar to a modified Kronos sound), I therefore am considered an author (similar to a Kronos sound "designer"), but I have no rights whatsoever on my own translated work, because this text (following the analogy, the modified Korg sound) remains entirely the property of the publisher and author of the original work (or Korg, if we talk about a factory sound). This because the publisher had to initially ask permission to the author of the original text/book to translate it and then buy according copyrights (and those are very expensive) so he could sell it in another language.

So again, it makes sense that similar copyright laws apply to protect texts, music and even sounds. Interesting topic.


The option to contact korg and try to negotiate a special deal, is always possible. At the very least: no one answers, and if lucky -you can at least get someone to confirm what can and cannot be done without special permission granted.
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jahrome
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in summary...after all the paragraphs....none of you guys know whether or not you can use the Kronos synth engines (not the actual samples) for sound design to create instruments for other samplers.

Obviously, I can contact Korg directly. I have to call them as their website doesn't have email for support that I can find.

I posted this question here because this is a Kronos forum and some Korg insiders do or have frequented here.
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