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Pa4X frozen in Live Gig
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BR
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Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 1492
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the second time my Pa4X is frozen during Live performance.
Just report back the same issue.
I had the same problem with my Pa4X yesterday night, almost a year after the first time.

That was during live performance with about 200 people.
The Style stopped running and I heard a big noise, like an Alarm noise.
The Pa4X was unresponsive and I had to turn it off and on to continue playing.

I perform in the same club regularly 3 times per week and this happened 2 times February 2017 and now December 2018.
That's strange and frustrating and Not easy to troubleshoot the issue.
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D575
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BR wrote:
This is the second time my Pa4X is frozen during Live performance.
Just report back the same issue.
I had the same problem with my Pa4X yesterday night, almost a year after the first time.

That was during live performance with about 200 people.
The Style stopped running and I heard a big noise, like an Alarm noise.
The Pa4X was unresponsive and I had to turn it off and on to continue playing.

I perform in the same club regularly 3 times per week and this happened 2 times February 2017 and now December 2018.
That's strange and frustrating and Not easy to troubleshoot the issue.
B.R. ...You need to let korgs service engineers run some diagnostic tests... but if this is still like the video I put up earlier in this thread then it is most probably a hardware issue according to my personal experience as with others... let korg take a look for you (if you can)...as this will be the only way to get peace of mind and resolve things quickly.... hope this helps
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Pa4x frozen Reply with quote

D575 wrote:
... need to let korgs service engineers run some diagnostic tests...


To run diagnostic test only makes sense if carried out with the same data (musical resources) that was used while system has failed.
Better each one affected by frozen Pa-Keyboards would control and announce itself what action occurs immediately before frozen and which musical resources was used.

As mostly mentioned frozen keyboard happens in styleplay-mode and there where also styles, performances etc from sets of unknown / uncontrolled sources existing in memory, the problem arising is not surprising.

As soon as there is a link (name of) to a sound (PCG) outside the factory PCGs in this software, access to this memory adress results in a reading error, because data are not validly formatted for the system.

Such links to non-existing PCGs simply are produced when loading sets (tracks in styles, performances etc) with user-sounds, that are non-existent in the system. Loading such data does not cause an error, of course, but once this data is accessed on the fly, then a reading error occurs; system will be frozen.

This happens as soon as access to one of the memory contents outside Factory resources (UserNN.pcg, UserDKNN.pcg, RAM.kmp, RAMnn.pcm) is unsuccessful.

So it is most important to ensure that every non-factory-sound in the loaded resources (sets) is available as UserSound/DK (pcg) in the Pa system as reliable and playable beforehand.
*
For example, loading Dopamine as a set is not a guarantee that the sounds referred to in the real-time and background tracks also exist in the memory (.pcg, .kmp, .pcm). If they were not previously (before loading styles/kbdsets) adopted in a system-appropriate manner, access to this data during the game will lead to the problems mentioned.
*
Sometimes, if a link happens to refer to a non-existing sound (PCG), but this memory location happens to be filled with any other data from the system but to be in a readable format, maybe system does not freeze, but reads another sound as expected - but also is unpleasant.
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- siebenhirter, austria -

Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
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BR
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D575 wrote:
You need to let korgs service engineers run some diagnostic tests... but if this is still like the video I put up earlier in this thread then
it is most probably a hardware issue according to my personal experience as with others... let korg take a look for you (if you can)...
as this will be the only way to get peace of mind and resolve things quickly.... hope this helps
Thanks D575.
Cannot hear clearly and compare exactly the sound/noise in your video with what I got in my Pa4X but anyway it ends up freezing the keyboard and making a big noise like an alarm sound.

siebenhirter wrote:

As mostly mentioned frozen keyboard happens in styleplay-mode and there where also styles, performances etc from sets of
unknown / uncontrolled sources existing in memory, the problem arising is not surprising.
Thanks for the good information.
If this is the reason of the freezing problem, so how we can diagnose and detect the unknown/uncontrolled sources existing in memory.
Indeed as a user, I don't have neither the knowledge nor the tools to run such a diagnosis.
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keysman
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thie problem of ‘freezing’ really concerns me as I am seriously thinking of moving onto the 4x early next year & was hoping that all the initial software problems would have been sorted by now. I always give a keyboard at least 18 months to two years before upgrading simply for the instability of the software which it appears the users (purchasers) basically put it to the test once a keyboard is released to the general public.

I’ve had my Pa3x for six years & it’s been gigged regularly in this time & it has been so reliable with no issues in live situations what so ever so this post does concern me over reliability on live gigs etc.

I would be interested to know how many other players have encountered this problem.
Cheers
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D575
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keysman wrote:
Thie problem of ‘freezing’ really concerns me as I am seriously thinking of moving onto the 4x early next year & was hoping that all the initial software problems would have been sorted by now. I always give a keyboard at least 18 months to two years before upgrading simply for the instability of the software which it appears the users (purchasers) basically put it to the test once a keyboard is released to the general public.

I’ve had my Pa3x for six years & it’s been gigged regularly in this time & it has been so reliable with no issues in live situations what so ever so this post does concern me over reliability on live gigs etc.

I would be interested to know how many other players have encountered this problem.
Cheers
To be fair although I had my problems historically with two previous PA4X models which where both from early production runs and both had hardware faults out of the box and after 18 months having the run around at that time I can confirm the 3rd replacent PA4X I now have was from a later production run and has not missed a beat... this has been a rock solid keyboard for me to-date...so I think I should be clear about that as I was very vocal at that earlier time when my self and other's with are first batch of PA4X where unfortunately having problem after the PA4X was first released... So like the PA3X the PA4X is a great keyboard after most of the bugs have been sorted out....eventually of course. Smile
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Last edited by D575 on Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:22 am; edited 2 times in total
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:09 am    Post subject: Pa4x frozen Reply with quote

BR wrote:
.. If this is the reason of the freezing problem, so how we can diagnose and detect the unknown/uncontrolled sources existing in memory.
Indeed as a user, I don't have neither the knowledge nor the tools to run such a diagnosis.


There are no known tools to run such diagnosis. Better prevent yourself from using corrupt data. Using factory sounds (.pcg) only in Set files will cause no system errors.
If loading a SET be aware that with each load of a SET it can happen to funnel corrupt data into the system - even if set file comes from yourself and the same machine, but includes user data in folders User01.pcg ... User04.pcg, UserDK.pcg.

In the case UserSounds in meantime have been changed in the Pa keyboard and reloading again datatype Style of an early created Set its styles was based on userSounds - it may have happened that corrupt data has crept in system because not correlating sound data between memory and reloaded sound data in tracks of reloaded style.
*
That is because loading a SET folder containing Sounds in folders based on User Sounds/Drumkits, existing PCG-files in that folders will be deleted.
If existing old PCG-files are deleted, existing old musical resources (styles, kbdSets, Pads) linked to access that now missing sounds cause a system error.
*
Same happens, if loading data from a SET based on User Sounds (PCGs, DKs) without Set really contains that user sounds in folders. That really are corrupt data, as if new PCG-files does not exist in memory, new loaded musical resources (styles, kbdSets, Pads) linked to access that non-existent sounds cause a system error.
*
As mentioned in the last post it is most important to ensure that every non-factory-sound in the loaded resources (sets) is available as UserSound/DK (pcg) in the Pa system as reliable and playable beforehand. That is the first step not to get a freezing system (don't know if another step is necessary).

It is dangerous to uncontrolled collect SETs to try out whether it contains good musical resources without making sure that the user.pcgs in internal memory exists with its possible links to RAM.kmp and RAM. That is important to be ready for access of user sounds from tracks in styles, pads, performances, sts, sb-entries and setlists.
*
Note to Pa4x Manual page 922 .. 926ff:
Loading a type of data may delete all the data of the same type contained in the internal memory.
Loading a single bank all data contained in the target bank in memory are deleted.
When loading a SET folder containing Sounds based on User Samples, all existing User Samples in memory are deleted......etc.
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- siebenhirter, austria -

Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
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BR
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: Pa4x frozen Reply with quote

siebenhirter wrote:

There are no known tools to run such diagnosis. Better prevent yourself from using corrupt data. Using factory sounds (.pcg) only in Set files will cause no system errors.
How?
As we know the Pa4X is designed for importing user sound/samples for different kind of music, that's why Korg gave us 400 MB (800 MB compressed) of RAM memory
in order to use customized sound for Styles and Keyboard set, etc...

Personally I use very little of Factory resources (Styles and Sounds) and I am not the only one.
Korg company should take in consideration and give us any tools to verify the sets before using them or including this into their software.

As a user for me the corrupt data does not make any sense because when I load my customized set I do not get any error message and it works like a charm.
If the Pa4X is designed to work correctly 100% with only Factory resources,
so in this case having 400 MB of Ram and giving us the ability to create customized Styles and Sound would make any sense.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Pa4x frozen Reply with quote

BR wrote:
.. As a user for me the corrupt data does not make any sense because when I load my customized set I do not get any error message and it works like a charm. If the Pa4X is designed to work correctly 100% with only Factory resources, so in this case having 400 MB of Ram and giving us the ability to create customized Styles and Sound would make any sense. ..


If that would not make any sense, no computer-based system should be used to use external data in addition to its built-in-resources. Problem with corrupt data is as old as computer technology, simply happens with external disks - also typical for use of usb devices - and can happen with any system, not just with Pa keyboards.

What never should happen is a frozen OS - also never should happen with corrupt data, because if programmed conscientiously, the location of the erroneous data should be displayed as an error message - nothing else. Korg seems to have insufficient OS-error routines, but we should be able to document with what data and under what circumstances the system freezes. With corrupt Data that causes frozen systems Korg certainly not will have tested the Pa operating system - but would be important to document and prove the circumstances of an OS-crash.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_corruption
*
BR wrote:
.. How? ..
.. to provide lack of errors there are countermeasures against corrupt data, but Pa-Keyboards seems not to detect details of corrupt data as early as loading. Korg, however, points out (eg Pa4x Manual page 922 .. 926ff) how to load data to avoid missing data. Also it should be known to every user how to mix user data from different sets if working frequently with user sounds.
---> http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=111124&highlight=merge+sound

Merging user sounds from different sources certainly is not easy, but if you intend to, you have to deal with it to such an extent that you do not produce this corrupt data yourself. I believe most Pa system errors happen by selfmade generated corrupt data.
*
Of course, you are not protected using an unknown customized Set, but if you use sets from unknown source with maybe hundreds of styles/performances/pads without to control about existing user sounds - one would risks a frozen Pa-keyboard!
*
To play merrily immediately with it rather not is recommended. Better search the traces of the loaded resources for existing UserSounds at least before the first test run and check whether they are also present in the internal memory!
*
BR wrote:
.. Korg company should take in consideration and give us any tools to verify the sets before using them or including this into their software. ..


Of course, a tool that could be used to check user data for data integrity before using it would be desirable. But as soon as you change the Set data of UserSounds on the target device or the source device and again load the Set uncontrollably, you have corrupt data again.

Better an OS programmed conscientiously not to crash under all circumstances - but for now definitely and as a matter of urgency, a more sensitive approach to UserSounds on Sets is recommended!
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- siebenhirter, austria -

Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
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Bill Komotini
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had the same issue for about 4, 5 times, allways live on gigs... but I
came to the conclusion that is was a result from a combination of specific
style and a specific performance. Deleted the performance and the sound ( multisample and samples) and since then the pa4x never froze up to now.
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BR
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now this is the third time my Pa4X is frozen during Live performance (May-9-2019).
I'm just reporting the same freezing problem that happened yesterday night during a live performance at the same location (club)
where I perform regularly 2 or 3 times per week with my Pa4X 61keys International version.

The Style stopped running and I heard a big noise, like an Alarm noise.
The Pa4X was unresponsive and I had to turn it off and on to continue playing.
Last time freezing problem was in December 2018.
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is sounding like a hardware problem (or power - do you use a UPS?)
What was the style - was it and its sounds all factory?
You on v3 or v2?

Happy to try it on my PA4X if you want some confirmation or testing.

Pete Very Happy
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Asena
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, This is the problem, We can,t trust on this OS!
Even if it,s 2.2 i,m never 100% on stage,
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, This is the problem, We can,t trust on this OS!
Even if it,s 2.2 i,m never 100% on stage,

Hi Asena
That's a shame and of course applies to all computer based equipment and unprotected power.
Much also depends on customisation and 3rd party add-ons which we know can create havoc.

I have much more trust than this as I have had one major issue (freeze/shutdown) since my Korg i3 (over 20 years) and I have gigged a lot in that time.

Hope things improve for you

Kind regards

Pete Very Happy
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Asena
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Pete, Thank you, As you know We are few persons that Digs in it!

but, on stage front of so much people with frosen KB, is realy hard to explain.
Especialy if the song is one of the best and the audience are on top of it.

KORG, must must must help us out, and i,m sure they are triying at the moment.
I can just say one thing, WE here have manny sollution on this OS, And we can Provide to solve things to gether.
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KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10




MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
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