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Big Bug and very important functions missing. Please update
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karmathanever
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Joined: 12 Jan 2004
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Location: Australia (Oz !!)

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good points and great post.

The term "bug" in relation to software or human health for that matter, means "something is wrong".
When it comes to software it means that the product has failed somewhere in terms of its formal definition (hence user expectation).
Definition is its specification and in the case of the PA4X for example, is a manual with over 1000 pages.

The topics in the forums requesting "potential bug reports" is there to assist Korg (hopefully) to identify and debug their software.
Bugs in software are NOT the "differences" between versions of hardware/software - i.e. new/changed or removed features for example PA3X vs PA4X.

Like most here, I can write a list of things I would like to have on my keyboard plus things I used to have and would like to have again but none of them are bugs even if they are viewed as poor design by some.

I always support and seriously value the views and feedback from others.
As you say there is sometimes confusion due to language and culture differences.

In summary, I am hoping Korg will address these serious problems as it is affecting their arranger future right now - that would be a shame.

The intermittent shutdown-restart is the most serious.

Fingers crossed we will get some news soon.

Very Happy
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siebenhirter
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Joined: 13 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:59 am    Post subject: Songbook resetting Kbd-Tracks of running styles - unuseable Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
.. there is sometimes confusion due to language and culture differences ..


The trivialization of errors and the excuses used - that causes confusion.
Think it was not Italian, Serbian or Vietnamese but English:

If a kbdSet will change when with Pa4x/1000 Songbook a running style automatically is changed by selection of a sb-entry with entry-type style and setting "StyleToKbdSet = OFF" you get an UGLY BUMPY TRANSITION.

That is caused by RESETTINGS OF KBD-TRACKS, so Pa-Songbook generally is UNUSEABLE FOR STYLEPLAY with running style.

Without evaluating what is the most serious - that really is more then "something is wrong".

This applies to all those who have played with Styles so far; no additional money is to spend to address that issue and problematic need not be filtered through a lens of percentage of users.
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duby2
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Joined: 16 Jun 2002
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Location: USA Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: pa4 Reply with quote

karmathanever

+1
got it right !
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romney_yw



Joined: 14 May 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Merseyside (formerly Lancashire)

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if I'm missing something here.

Why don't you program your second Songbook entry so that it has the same sound in KbdSet#1 that you were playing when you left the first Songbook entry (e.g. KbdSet#4)? When the keyboard automatically selects KbdSet#1 for Songbook entry #2, there's no audible change, because it's the same sound that is already selected.

Alternatively, you can write a Songbook entry to start with Variation #2 (or #3 or#4). If Style to KbdSet is flashing, the KbdSet corresponding to your chosen Variation will be automatically selected.

Seems to work on my PA700.....
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seaside
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Joined: 07 Sep 2016
Posts: 93
Location: South Wales UK

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could use the keyboard set library for the song book entry instead of the keyboard set. I have saved my favourite sounds in banks named as Genre eg Ballad, Country, Rock.When you want to change a sound touch the screen(below select sound 1 and 2)and 8 sounds will immediately be available in that genre plus other pages.Of course style to keyboard must be off and hold screen to be on,if you want your sound selection to be before your eyes. -Terry
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siebenhirter
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Joined: 13 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject: Missing soft transition of kbdSet to next sb-entry-style Reply with quote

Marco Filipe wrote:
.. - Big BUG!!!! When I select a song in the songbook, it changes the sound I'm using in the keyboard set. which completely spoils the passage from one song to another. I need the option for not doing that (like pa3x) the button Style to KBD Set It's supposed to do that in songbook too ...


OP need no help with alternatives how to realize passages without spoils, but simply a proper working StyleToKbdSet in Songbook-Mode as it also does in StylePlay-Mode.
He also does not intend to renounce on functionality of songbook with entries prepared and stored with entry-type styles.
It is ok to use chosing sb-entries to always start from a song like with a template (kbdSet#1).
It is not ok chosing sb-entries with entry-type styles that spoils the passage from one running song to another.
StyleToKbdSet set to Off does not spoil in styleplay-mode, but same function spoils in sb-mode with entry-type style.
*
I think THAT IS NOT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND and there is NO REASON TO DISCUSS NEVER-ENDING AGAINST TO CORRECT "StyleToKbdSet" so that it works, finally, correctly ALSO IN SB-MODE WITH ENTRY-TYPE STYLES !

romney_yw wrote:
.. program your second Songbook entry .....

One must not look for any alternatives, because with StyleToKbdSet set to Off anyway tools are made for this to get soft-transition of kbd-tracks, but do not work properly in sb-mode mit sb-entry-typ style. If a sb-entry is chosen identified as style-based only next style should be selected with soft transition of kbdTracks and should switch to style play mode as described. SIMPLE FUNCTION OF STYLETOKBDSET IS TO CORRECT to work properly as intended and described.

StyleToKbdSet indicator OFF means Styles do not select a Keyboard Set - above all if it concerns automatically changing of a running song to another of the Entry type "Style", besides, no setting of the KbdTracks may occur - the button StyleToKbdSet is supposed to do that in songbook with entry-type "Style" too.

With styles to get UGLY BUMPY TRANSITION and setting "StyleToKbdSet = OFF" is caused by faulty RESETTING OF KBD-TRACKS. This mistake should be repaired as quickly as possible, because otherwise Pa-Songbook really is UNUSEABLE FOR STYLEPLAY with running styles.
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pippuzzo
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there, don't want to fire up the discussion too much, but would like to express my experience here.

The time I prepare a Songbook I would like to recall it exactly as saved, everytime, no exception.
I had previously a Pa3X and had to switch all the time the button Style to KbdSet so that it doesn't recall KBD with styles, but recall it with songbooks. That's exactly what I get now with the Pa4x simply keeping always the button off. It was one of the big point to change the old model.
You can imagine how many times I did wrong with the Pa3x. I've to say: the Pa3x was a nightmare for me, absolutely not the current situation.
Also I don't have problems with running styles: I'm not always playing the keyboard when selecting a new songbook, it can happen very rarely and can work around it in a musical way. That's no trouble, my priority remains the songbook selection as said. As a side note (OT) I would like to have instead "smooth transition" like in Kronos, but this has absolutely nothing to say with the songbook selection. Now when you select a sound while keeping the old one sometimes it is kept, sometimes it change volume or tone, sometimes it is truncated. That's not really professional. And again nothing to share with the songbook selection.

I also saw in other thread about reintroducing the select button in songbook: well once in a store tried it again in an old model and it was very irritating doing the pre-selection and then the selection. Now you select everything directly and it is faster and easier (would like also the search doing like this). You can make errors while selecting a songbook? Yes, the same you can do selecting the wrong style, the wrong keyboard set, the wrong ending or the wrong chord. Everthing impact the performance. Playing a arranger is made of handreds of different actions and everyone it is a potential error, cannot see any logical difference between them. We cannot go back to confirm every action with "Are you sure?" ... Wink

I'm not telling my opinion it is better than others, I respect all opinions, but it is probably good for some other people reading here but not writing. For me it is a big thumb up for the Pa4X, have good time playing it.

Cheers
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ pippuzzo
+1
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B.Safe
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ pippuzzo
+1
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siebenhirter
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Joined: 13 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Missing soft transition of kbdSet to next sb-entry-style Reply with quote

pippuzzo wrote:
.. don't want to fire up the discussion too much ... I respect all opinions, but it is probably good for some other people reading here but not writing. ..


It is interesting with absent objective arguments over and over again it is tried to answer with personal attacks.

If you think it probably would be good for some other people reading here but not writing, you really fire up the discussion and no readiness is recognizable that you would respect others opinions.

Simply accept the recommendations which you have suggested for some other people.
*
It is ok to exactly recall a sb-entry as prepared and saved. However, it is a mistake when chosen style-based entries select to pass from one style to another and switch to style-play without considering the setting of StyleToKbdSet - this function especially exists and is made for this.
*
That is exactly what OP complains as "Big BUG", as with songbook using a running style completely spoils the passage from one song to another. This only would happen with soft-transition of KbdTracks in case StyleToKbdSet would work proberly and how intended for this.
*
pippuzzo wrote:
.. For me it is a big thumb up for the Pa4X, have good time playing it ..


Your big thumb up is accepted and have good time playing - but think your nice posting hardly concerns complaint of OP, what we are talking about.
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one of the issues we face is that Korg's decision to include a fraction of the insert effects sections than many of their (often less expensive) competition has leads to these jumpy transitions. Even smooth sound transitions (which again, many have had for decades, Roland for example) are only a fairly recent appearance in Korg's arranger system.

But because the insert effect needs to change its memory registers (the usual way to do it is to mute out the entire thing while the registers reinitialize) and there are no 'spare' ones, it is very difficult to design keyboard setups that allow seamless transition between styles, even between Divisions, sometimes.

The standard is changing in the workstation world, newer keyboards are coming out with one insert effect per Part, and seamless transitions can be done on most current TOTL and MOTL workstations.

But Korg seem amongst the slowest of all the manufacturers to leverage their WS technology into their arranger line (still no real Kronos abilities in the PA line) and in consequence, practical issues remain unfixed.

Rather than baying at design changes that, even if they were reintroduced, wouldn't completely solve the issue, perhaps the time has come to bay at the moon for a solution that WOULD fix many problems once and for all?

One insert effect per Part, and a system that automatically switches to unused Parts at transitions should do the trick. Then it doesn't really matter HOW the SB is designed...
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: Missing soft transition of kbdSet to next sb-entry-style Reply with quote

Korghelper wrote:
.. one insert effect per Part, and a system that automatically switches to unused Parts at transitions should do the trick. Then it doesn't really matter HOW the SB is designed...


Your arguments regarding SmoothSoundTransition are already eligible, but with that the current discussion runs in a different direction than the OP intended with criticism of a special Sb-function.

The problem of the OP concerns the inadvertent automatic and therefore faulty changing settings of KbdSet tracks (Upper1,2, 3,Lower) caused by transition of one style to the next, triggered by the selecting a Sb-entry of entry-type "Style" during a running song.

As mentioned several times the solution is SIMPLE TO CORRECT THE FUNCTION OF STYLETOKBDSET TO WORK PROPERLY AS INTENDED AND DESCRIBED for all kinds of sb-use and entry-type with next OS-update.
*
PS: "Smooth sound transitions" would be an interesting thema worth to be treated separately. I think soft transition (Roland called it patch remain) especially would require to increase in computing power.
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hardly think an entry level Roland BK3 exceeds a PA4X for computing power. But seamless sound transition is a doddle for the Roland. Not so much for the powerful PA4X...
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