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V-man · Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:09 pm Post subject: Effects in Combis Best Practice?

Hi, any thoughts about what is the best practis managing effects in combis with many timbres?

This far I've mostly used the "Copy from program" feature selecting "All used" IFX from the program when bringing in timbres in a combi, but often I soon come to a point where there are no more empty effect slots available.

Many programs already have several IFX and also some MFX and TFX in their definition. What is the best way of managing the effects when I need to bring a number of programs like this in a Combi? Is it so that I need to bring in the probrams stripped from the effects and add effects on the timbres later from within the Combi it self?

Or is there another way to do this?
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kronoskarma · Joined: 24 Jan 2021 Posts: 34 Location: Lutz, FL

My workflow is to find and/or create a combi with everything I want - all sounds, effects, Karma attributes, etc. Once I have curated it and played it to the point that I know it will become the framework for my next song, I copy the combi to a new sequence with all IFX, MFX, TFX, Karma, sounds and everything. Then, I just add whatever extra programs/sounds I will need to the sequence (not the combi) to finish it up. I usually use around 14 tracks total - anywhere from 4 to 12 tracks for the combi and then whatever else I will require, not including audio tracks.

Of course, I do not play live so this is all for creating new music pieces in my studio.

Mike
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V-man · Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:31 pm Post subject:

GregC · Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:56 pm Post subject:

V-man · Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:57 pm Post subject:

GregC · Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:24 am Post subject:

KK · Platinum Member Joined: 13 Oct 2016 Posts: 1422

VoyteckM · Joined: 19 May 2020 Posts: 10

I try to analyze programs and find commonalities in IFX's (like reverbs, delays, compressors) sometimes you might be able to get away without importing all the effects per program and might find some that you can simply route 2 or more programs to (like if you're layering couple of sounds to create one thick sound maybe you will not need a couple of different delays or reverbs but just one) . Best option in my opinion though is knowing what you want your end result to be and adding effects as needed yourself not necessarily importing all the ones from each program. If 12 ifx's is not enough you might want to consider creating multiple combis in order and just stepping through them. Not sure if that's of any help, but works for me. Also you have the second keyboard maybe use that for part of sounds and use midi connection to layer sounds from both keyboards

kronoskarma · Joined: 24 Jan 2021 Posts: 34 Location: Lutz, FL

In my case, I am only messing with the combi in the beginning. There are thousands of combis and you can buy an almost never ending stream of combi packages, so you likely have combis to suit your needs for all eternity on the Kronos. Once I find one that fits my idea of what my song will be, I invest time in changing sounds, adding sounds, splitting, zoning, deleting or adding effects, etc. I leave the TFX and MFX alone because the overall sound of the combi is what I was searching for. I do not add program's effects to the combi; I just choose from the available categories and either associate effects or add effects as necessary. I can safely tell you that when all is said and done, no more than 5 IFX is ever really needed. Too many effects will wash out the sound. Likely, the reverb (o-verb) is a MFX and i'll add a beat sync delay, perhaps some chorus and that's about it. For me, it's more about the instruments and how they sound in the stereo field. Once I have a combi perfect, that's when I copy the combi to a new sequence for recording. I will likely not add any more effects to the sequence, just instruments. I may zone and layer a bit more, but that's about it. Once I've copied over the combi, I'm recording tracks at this point.

Mike
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Korg Karma
Korg M3 Expanded
Korg Kronos Titanium
Yamaha Tyros 5
Arturia MicroFreak
M-Audio Oxygen 61
Akai Force
Roland MC-707
1010music Black Box
Zoom Arq 48

V-man · Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:28 am Post subject:

Guys, I really appreciate your engagement and many thoughtful opinions about this! It helps alot! I'm beginning to understand the concept and the "architecture" behind combis and you all have given me good ideas about how to proceed.

I'm starting to like the suggested method of first bringing in the most important programs first into the combi and build from there and at the same time be careful not overloading with effects.

Thank's again all! Very Happy

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Yamaha S90ES, Kronos 2 61, Roland D50, Roland Integra 7, Roland D-05

kronoSphere · Platinum Member Joined: 04 Jan 2012 Posts: 697

Just a word :
Concerning the effects my rule has been always this : I record all the parts of my new sequence without absolutely no effects at all.
It is only after my song is finished that I will add effects here and there.
The advantage is that your ears are "new" for choosing any effect.
And also the other big advantage is that you can change easily, at any time, your mix.

☀️
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tunaman · Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2019 Posts: 427

V-man - I totally understand your issue, as I have created a ton of Combis in a similar manner with numerous timbres with existing EFX.

As I'm building my Combi, as I identify a Program I want to bring in, I pay close attention to the assigned IFX and TFX/MFX before bringing it in, especially in relation to what I already have present.

I then decide whether to include "IFX - All Used" and MFX and decide which check boxes to include.

Once I bring the Program into the Combi, I review the IFX Insert Effects page to look for duplicates and common effects such as chorus and reverb. If it is a complex Combi, I'll typically remove any chorus and reverb and apply those as TFX or MFX, depending on the need for that voice.

I look for duplicate effects and try to route timbres to common IFX where ever possible, depending on whether they are chained or not (and what impact that chain might have to that specific timbre).

This is all crucial, as the effects have an impact on resource utilization, and you can encounter issues with voice stealing if you're not careful.

KingKronos · Senior Member Joined: 02 Jan 2021 Posts: 269

I gigged with an Integra + Kronos combo for awhile. I ran the Integra into the Kronos. Calling up a set list slot on the Kronos pulled up a matching studio set on the Roland.

I didn't import whole programs with their FX into a combi. I think it's generally better to build from scratch. Use as few effects as possible. Of course, some instruments will need certain inserts. An amp for a bass part, a delay for a lead, a leslie for an organ, what have you.

Better to build only as needed inside the combi, rather than try juggling effects slots you would have imported. I prefer to make things breathe using pan and EQ and channel levels, instead of having walls of everything-thick-with-stereo-effects.

Almost every combi will have the same Master and Total FX. Chorus / reverb on the MFX. Multiband compressor / stereo limiter on the TFX.

It's a pretty simple setup, which lets you build combis for songs as quickly as possible. I usually end up revisiting and touching up later as needed.

V-man · Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:56 pm Post subject:

Thank's again guys! I think I'm beginning to get a grip of and ideas about ways of working with effects now. Great input!

As an "effect apprentice" I've noticed that it is common that programs and combis are finalized with TFXs like Multiband Compressor and Stereo Limiter. What do these effects actually do??

When I listen thru some pretty good headphones I often do not here any direct impact on the sound when these kind of effects are added.
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Yamaha S90ES, Kronos 2 61, Roland D50, Roland Integra 7, Roland D-05

KingKronos · Senior Member Joined: 02 Jan 2021 Posts: 269

There are level meters on the master volume output on the MFX routing page. When you see red, you've hit the digital ceiling and it clips in a bad way. A stereo master limiter will keep this from happening.

I used the multiband compressor as a sort of EQ and level booster. Sometimes it's not appropriate though. Try putting it on an orchestral combi. It will make everything more balanced and louder. But if you use it on a combi with a lot of 80s synths, it might smash things up too much and rob some of the life away.

Lately I've been swapping out the multiband compressor for the stereo tube preamp model. That gives a bit more punch and a touch of saturation. Works well for adding beef and warmth.

As an insert effect, the mic models are fun. Try a multi condenser in close, on, or off-axis position. It can sometimes make things less far away and digital. Kind of like taking a blanket off the speakers, or more like aiming them more at your ears.

Kronos has a lot of pretty good effects. The reverbs are kinda meh, but if you dig around with settings, you'll find a lot of gems in the various effects.