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RiotNrrd
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Joined: 21 Jan 2002
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Location: Portland Oregon Metro Area
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 Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
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"you can't do math without knowing numbers, you can't do grammar without knowing alphabet, you can't do music without knowing notes"
Well... John Lennon couldn't read music.
I can't either.
Now, I'm no John Lennon (and I think anyone listening to my own pieces would probably agree). But still... I think it's quite possible to do music without being able to read the notes.
On the other hand, I think it's a lot harder to do other peoples music without being able to read it. |
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Fatalmasterpiece
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Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| X-Trade wrote: | I've noticed similarly with musicians and non-musicians alike, is the general fading-out of the understanding of actual musical complexity, and more of an interest of 'who can play the fastest'.
Its good enough to hear people showing off and saying "I can play 287bpm" or such, BUT it still depends on what you actually play, and whether you put feeling and skill into it, or you just have fast hands.
But I feel that no-one else understands... The reason it has got like this is because people find it easier to judge speed than skill and finesse. |
The same applies for many instruments.
For example, the fastest drummer, Tim Waterson, has no band worth mentioning, nor a real anthology.
Many amazing guitar players, such as Yngwie Malmsteen are eclipsed in my opinion by musicians like David Gilmore who's expression has endured for years.
However, in these newer generations of "Omg look, I'm so fast" Youtube videos and who can make the hardest song on Guitarhero (ala Dragonforce) the whoah factor is more important than actual music expression.
Musical expression takes love for the sound... to sculpt it and impart one's soul, while speed only takes technical skill, no love. Perhaps this is why many of these new 'would be' musicians don't stick with it or learn the details of an enigmatic art form. |
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Diego
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Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 2882
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| RiotNrrd wrote: | "you can't do math without knowing numbers, you can't do grammar without knowing alphabet, you can't do music without knowing notes"
Well... John Lennon couldn't read music.
I can't either.
Now, I'm no John Lennon (and I think anyone listening to my own pieces would probably agree). But still... I think it's quite possible to do music without being able to read the notes.
On the other hand, I think it's a lot harder to do other peoples music without being able to read it. |
Yes, I agree with you!
Maybe I used the wrong translation of my sentence...
i.e. I think you can write a beautiful poem without read tons of books, and the same is with music, there are lots of way to make a tune without knowing notation...but I think that a commercial, succesfull, finished music always pass under the hand of a trained musician.
Once again, I can't explain myself because of my bad english, sorry 
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Synthoid
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Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 3300
Location: PA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| JonSolo wrote: | | Instead of being musicians, they are merely program operators. Since the program can pitch and tempo stretch, it is merely a matter of picking the prefabbed beat you want and putting the other pieces in. |
And most computer "musicians" don't even pay for their software....it's often pirated.
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Giner
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 1347
Location: Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| JonSolo wrote: | Sadly, as great as technology is I feel that progress is largely to blame for the frustrations you guys have expressed. Progressive technology has placed music in the hands of anyone who has a computer. While on the surface this would seem a great step, perhaps even the most fantastic step in musical history (giving ALL the chance to make music), it has really robbed them of making music.
Instead of being musicians, they are merely program operators. Since the program can pitch and tempo stretch, it is merely a matter of picking the prefabbed beat you want and putting the other pieces in. It was for this reason that I always hated construction kit sample CDs. It has just been taken to the next level.
What sparks our flames, if we are really honest with ourselves, is not so much that people are being robbed of talent insomuch as we are being robbed of dignity and respect. Tracks that I spent hours or even days on to perfect can be cut and pasted for the most part from Garage Band (a tool that in the hands of a real musician becomes thousands of times more powerful, for the record so as not to piss off Apple lovers). This makes it discouraging to make music...especially of the modern flair.
In agreement...sacrifice is part of the formula that is lacking in many "music makers" today. It is not nostalgia that draws us to music of yesteryear, it is the longing for something real.
In essence comparing musicians to the new breed of program operators is like comparing a war hero from WWII to the guy down the road who beat Call of Duty in a few hours...not on the same page...not even in the same book.
Solo |
I can't disagree with one word of what you said there, JonSolo. Spot on.
On the subject of speed, JR wasn't the first in that department. Neither was Kenny G. I'd have to give those honours to Bert Weedon who, fifty years ago was telling kids, "I'm going to play 1,000 notes a miinute. Are you watching closely?"
Okay, now that I've lost 99% of you, my own take on this subject is that the spaces between the notes and phrases are no less important than the notes and phrases themselves, let's all be aware of that. |
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JonSolo
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Charleston
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Well it is hard to criticize any musician who IS a musician. Each of us have our own style and approach, Rudess included.
I have heard music in this forum that I am capable of reproducing note-wise but would be hard pressed to duplicate in feeling and touch. And much of that music is fantastic. Even some musicians who are in the fetal stage of their growth are delivering REAL music.
It's the others that bother me.
Jon
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mdh
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Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| X-Trade wrote: | Its good enough to hear people showing off and saying "I can play 287bpm" or such, BUT it still depends on what you actually play, and whether you put feeling and skill into it, or you just have fast hands.
But I feel that no-one else understands... The reason it has got like this is because people find it easier to judge speed than skill and finesse. |
Not just speed but style - to some people if you don't wear the right clothes or have the right "image" then you suck, no matter how many orders of magnitude you outplay via skill and finesse someone else with these attributes.
Similarly I see some guitarists with $4000 pedalboards with more dials, lights and buttons than the cockpit of an A380 yet you read interviews with Angus Young or The Edge or (insert well-known guitarist here) and they have like 3 pedals max. |
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Diego
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Posts: 2882
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mdh wrote: | | Similarly I see some guitarists with $4000 pedalboards with more dials, lights and buttons than the cockpit of an A380 yet you read interviews with Angus Young or The Edge or (insert well-known guitarist here) and they have like 3 pedals max. |
Quote, quote, and QUOTE!!!
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Fatalmasterpiece
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Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ4nPcGCGIs&feature=related
Someone needs to figure out how the aliens replaced Jordan and what their plans are for our world.
By the way, where the heck do you get one of those? I can't find a store that sells them. |
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Diego
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Posts: 2882
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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AHAH!
OMG, let's wait Lorenzo see that video...!!
BTW, the fact he starts that video doing a light-fast random pressing of buttons tells a lot about his approach to playing...!
Regards
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mikemolloyuk
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Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 748
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | Jordan Rudess could probably get into the Guinness Book of records for the highest number of keys pressed in under 10 seconds, but what I'd love to hear him do is actually play a song with feeling.
He's an excellent keyboard player, but he seems to be caught up more in trying to impress people with playing as many notes as possible rather than playing the ones that matter most and that put feeling in a song.
No disrespect to the guy intended, he is truly gifted.
Regards.
Sharp. |
I can't agree with you sharp on that one. You need to watch some more live DT DVD's or something. Jordan is a remarkable player and not at all into just showing if he can break the world keyboard record for as many notes in a second....... these are gifted guys and any musician (inc myself) who can play fast on any instrument knows that it's not what its about. DT play complex and melodic phrases and if there is a need to play fast as John Pertuchi or Mike Portnoy would have to to fit the song, then thats what they do.....
Mike |
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georgeinar
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Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 3425
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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To jump in here, I have been asking myself if any real musician could enjoy playing the game "Rock Band" or "Guitar Hero" as I'm a video game junky, but I would rather play for real than plug in a toy and pretend I'm playing. How lame is that? And those are the most popular games right now.
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Fatalmasterpiece
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Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| georgeinar wrote: | | To jump in here, I have been asking myself if any real musician could enjoy playing the game "Rock Band" or "Guitar Hero" as I'm a video game junky, but I would rather play for real than plug in a toy and pretend I'm playing. How lame is that? And those are the most popular games right now. |
Right, I would rather play a game involving something I can't do in real life like pilot a fighter jet or slay a dragon. Music and sports games have always eluded me. |
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JonSolo
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Charleston
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if sports figures have the same hangup with their virtual games as we do with virtual music games?
I wonder if war heros have a problem with first person shooters.
I wonder if Frodo Baggins knows there is an MMORPG around his quest.
Solo
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georgeinar
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