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Vex

I thought that this problem isn't a problem, but definitely is a bug- problem.

INSERT EFFECTS DO NOT WORK AS IT SHOULD .

The same effects works differently when I using them like Insert and master fx.

I have done all routing rules, and I know matter, so human factor here is out of option.

Example :

Stereo compressor FX ,when is on Insert FX,either for the whole DK /or for the specific family CHOKE everything. ( this is example with default compressor settings - I am aware that different parameters could produce such effect (choking effect)) . Result- Drum kit sounds worse and Stereo compressor is useless when using it on Insert Fx.
When I put the same FX on Master FX (non relevant 1-2 or 3 ) ane re-route signal in Mixer, that FX (Stereo Compressor ) is working as Insert FX like it should ( Like is working on Pa3x ) ,sound picture is much better!

My observations so far that Insert FX is working OK when using bass amp Fx's , guitar amps on guitars, but others, Dynamic FX( Compressors,Limiters , Flangers ( MODULATION FX's ) ARE NOT WORK WELL ON INSERT FX. I did not have time to try all of them to figure out how is doing rest of groups ( Filter, Freq )

I thought that Korg changed Fx behaviour, but, I have contacted General Distributor for Korg in my area ,and they confirm that problem/ BUG with FXs.

At first, I thought that this is normal,but my Pa4x definitely sounds worse than my ex pa3x because of that insert fx problems.

So now I'm doing abnormal stuff...Using only Master Fx for Dynamic group of Fx's instead of using space Fx's ( reverbs and delays)

Paolo and team, please respond about this problem ASAP !!!
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KORG Pa4x-76
https://soundcloud.com/vexmunja
http://www.youtube.com/user/VexMunja

alfaholic · Guest Joined: 19 Oct 2011 Posts: 23

I would like to report the same, if used as an Insert effects, Stereo Compressor sounds different, or to be more precise it sounds bad, and no matter what setup I use it is almost unusable.
Maybe there is some other effect that is affected, but for now I noticed this one.

In particular, Stereo Compressor squashes the sound if used as an Insert effect, but if used as Master/Send effect it sounds the same as before on Pa2X Pro and Pa3X.
Pa1X had Mono Compressor, but that one was identical to the later ones in Pa2X Pro and Pa3X, so I would like to know if this is a bug, or Korg "fixed" something that did not needed to be fixed at all, because Stereo Compressor is one of the best effects included, or it was.

I would like to know if this is a bug, or Korg made this on purpose because I have over 400 styles to edit to make my Pa4 sound at least as good as Pa3X, I would not like to do it later again if Korg fix this as a bug in their next update.
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www.dynamix-audio.com

Sharp · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject:

With such a sensational thread heading, I was expecting to read total epic failure. Now I'm all disappointed. Laughing

Can you please give some consideration to the title and content of future threads please. Addressing threads to “All Pa4X User” about something “Broken” will cause misleading worry amongst some people.

I'm not trying to diminish your findings, all I'm saying is just give some consideration to the formatting of your thread title and content.

Vex · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject:

Sharp, thank you for responding.

I am aware that this is unofficial Korg forum powered by members.

Title thread and what is inside is exactly what I wanted to say. It is alarming.

For almost two months now I am trying to figure out what is wrong with the sound . My setup from Pa3x doesn't sound nearly good on Pa4x . I figured out that Insert effects does not work on Pa4x as they should . I going tonight on New Year's gig, so I do not have right now time do bring some audio evidence , but I will prove this with audio and video if it has to be like that. This is a major problem .

And I already spoke to general Korg distributor in my country, they sad that they are aware of this problem,and they will send an e-mail to Korg development team.

Sorry for such sensational title, but I'm a bit frustrated,too... Days and sleepless nights to find out is it about new sound engine,or something else... But ,unfortunately , bugs and problems are present.
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KORG Pa4x-76
https://soundcloud.com/vexmunja
http://www.youtube.com/user/VexMunja

mintjamman · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:29 pm Post subject:

Vex I can sense your frustrations but as pointed out Korg are visitors to this forum as and when, like many of us I would guess !

Your not alone in this frustration at things not working as expected or at all !
and we have the benefit of Paolo looking in at what users and owners are saying here. For my part wish lists are exactly that and should be put on the backburner while Korg figure out exactly what faults exist with the existing hardware and software and set right about fixing any such problems which are identified with users and Korg's own people.

The thread setup on this forum to list any know bugs identified by users should in my view be passed over to Korg as a Group, as individual complaints to dealers and Country Distributors will be filed and not dealt with, Between Korg and realworld users all of the operational issues must be actioned and if Korg do not address the issues or take too long to deal with them Korg run the likely risk of loosing customers and in the case of the Pa4x these are the types of customers who have cash in their pockets to spend on a high end arranger product and Korg would be foolish to loose this custom.

I have as yet not found this Insert Issue but as someone said the other day exactly what part of the Pa4x does not work to specification ? Well the answer to that is that this issue may be such a example ?
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Yamaha S90ES, Korg Triton Pro, EXB Moss, Roland XV5080, Korg EX8000, Korg Pa4x 76, Korg Kronos 88, Crumar MOJO, Logic Pro X, V Collection, Novation SL61,Vienna, Korg Pa4x , EC-5, Vienna, Arturia V Collection, Roland SC88 Pro, Roland D110, Alesis SR16, Alesis D4

Sharp · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject:

Vex · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:15 pm Post subject:

alfaholic · Guest Joined: 19 Oct 2011 Posts: 23

The same happens here.

This is very tricky. Insert effects work in a sense that you can use them and there is some processing we can hear, but the problem is the quality of the processed signal.
This is maybe what people from Korg wanted, making compressor more sensitive (?), but then the question arises why only Insert Effects and not Master/Send effects, and what will happen with backward compatibility which is one of the Korg's stronger selling points.

It would be nice if someone from Korg tell us whether this is intended to be like this, or this is a bug.
If this is the part of their plan, I would like to know why they changed something that worked very good, and also why only Insert Effect.
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www.dynamix-audio.com

mintjamman · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:23 pm Post subject:

I don't wish to take away from your worries but also bear in mind that it's taken you almost 2 months to simply figure out what was odd is a bug.

It seems your the first to notice on the forum, and so chances are most people probably haven't even noticed any issue and probably would have never noticed.

That doesn't struck me as something worthy of alarming everyone to the point where your addressing all Pa4X users about an issue you already reported to KORG, who already knew about it and reported it to KORG Italy.

I can't say that I entirely agree with that point of view, the fact that it may have taken a user two months to notice this or any other issue might better be construed that there's a lot to this instrument and between playing and fiddling I can see how it might take a period of time to work out that there might be a problem. The fact that Korg might also know is neither here or there and anyone buying a product who might just be sat there scratching there head with a manual and thinking they were doing something wrong and then to find clarification that others have noticed a issue is of undoubted help I would say. Vex has done nothing wrong in highlighting this !

More's the point how has Korg not noticed a glaring error like this ? ? ?
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Yamaha S90ES, Korg Triton Pro, EXB Moss, Roland XV5080, Korg EX8000, Korg Pa4x 76, Korg Kronos 88, Crumar MOJO, Logic Pro X, V Collection, Novation SL61,Vienna, Korg Pa4x , EC-5, Vienna, Arturia V Collection, Roland SC88 Pro, Roland D110, Alesis SR16, Alesis D4

Sharp · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:32 pm Post subject:

alfaholic · Guest Joined: 19 Oct 2011 Posts: 23

Just because most users will never notice that something is wrong does not mean that this should not be addressed.
Some of us bought this instrument because of Insert Effects, so this is a deal braker for us.
Using effects in modern arrangers makes all the difference compared to the ones from nineties, so even if it looks like something less important for most users, it is an advanced feature and advanced users will suffer the most.
Also, I noticed this after few minutes of playing with my Pa4x, so everyone who use Insert Effects extensively will notice right away that something is, if not wrong then different.

Sharp · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:46 pm Post subject:

Vex · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:27 pm Post subject:

Sharp · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:52 pm Post subject:

alfaholic · Guest Joined: 19 Oct 2011 Posts: 23

You can set FX Send level for each note/drum component, which is what I did with Pa2X Pro and all other Korg Pa arrangers without Insert effects. This way you can set desired level of compression to each note/drum component by altering input signal, but it was not perfect because you can not set output level for each note.
Either way, if you put FX Send for each note to 127, compressor will work the same as when you use it as an Insert Effect, which is logical because input signal level is the same, and it is the same effect.

The problem is somewhere else with Pa4X, the same effect sounds different, so when compressor is used as an Insert Effect the sound is squashed, too compressed. Earlier you can put Attack somewhere between 50 to 70, and Sensitivity from 70 to 90 and you will always achieve great sounding drum track, but with different character. Now, Pa4X sounds bad even if you put Attack to 10 and sensitivity to 30, snare disappears as too compressed, everything else feels like there is too much pumping, it simply do not work well.

Of course it is possible to use Master/Send effects for drum compression, but that has some other problems, for example latency and startup time. All Korg effects have some latency, so it can not be processed parallel with dry signal, and because if used as Master/Send effect there is some startup lag which is problematic if you want to change style during play, it eats first hit in the bar every time.

Korg's compressor was very simple and very powerful tool, now things looks a bit different, I do not know if that is made like this on purpose or this is just one minor bug. Either way, I need to wait for someone from Korg to confirm this so I can make my keyboard sound good again.
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