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Sharp · Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject:

Hi alfaholic

alfaholic · Guest Joined: 19 Oct 2011 Posts: 23

Thank you for your help.

I have to do more testing, but I think I might have solution for this, and you are on the same track with your suggestion.

My first Korg was the old X3, and back then you could choose the routing for two FX, which was never the case with their arrangers. Pa80 did not have DRY option to uncheck and listen only processed signal through Send to Master FX, which is added later in Pa1X. Pa3X is the first arranger with Insert FX, but all of them had some strange routing where Insert and Master FX were behind track mixer, and three master sliders for Drum/Perc, Bass, and Acc.
Now Pa4X is the first arranger to have "proper" routing where Insert FX is placed before track mixer and three master sliders, but now we have problem with dynamic effects and their lack of Input signal regulation, so Stereo Compressor is working hard.
Also, Stereo Compressor is more like Transient Modulator with only two knobs, so there is no Threshold and Ratio, but I understand that it is more complicated for the average users.

As I said earlier, I need more time to test this, but there are few ways to "fix" this, at least until Korg decide to give us Input and Output knob for each FX, or to make EQ Trim as PRE.

As for FX latency, there is much less latency and startup time for Insert FX than Master FX. It was still there on a Pa3X, but much better compared to Pa2X Pro.
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Asena · Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:42 am Post subject:

Well, I think VEX did find something that,s really important for KORG, and for Users.
But on the same time, why are we fighting on this, The truth is that, The KORG is not the same as it should be!
1 X was super sounding machine, Clear, Better quality, Led,s Keybed, and so, 2X was OK! 3 X Messed upp whit sound quality, And 4x are missing to many things,and some 4 x is not booting after OS upgrade!

Whit all my respect, Whats going on there?
I know that Korg can do this better, It,s my dream team.
I,m reading to many posts whit many things that makes me sad.
Are we beta testers?

Rolling Eyes

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KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10

MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
LOTS OF SAMPLE SOUNDS!
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karmathanever · Platinum Member Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Posts: 10400

Vex · Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject:

I am aware that this is not Paolo's obligation, but I would like to,and I'm asking here politely ,if he can say anything about this described in this thread ?

My whole keyboard sound depends on this .... I do not now what to do now with Pa4x, I'm stuck. If this can be fixed- I must wait, if this can not be fixed- I'll maybe start thinking of selling this keyboard. i bought this keyboard to make better sound, but with this problems, my investment in Pa4x is a simple fail.

Thanks in advance.
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alfaholic · Guest Joined: 19 Oct 2011 Posts: 23

As far as I can see, this has nothing to do with input signal and routing, but I need to test it more.

It would be nice if Paolo can give us some input about this while we are troubleshooting...
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Paolo@Korg · Korg Italy Joined: 07 Dec 2002 Posts: 1090

Hi,

I'm unfortunately not able to answer, until our offices open back after these long holidays. We were obviously able to program some hundred Styles with the Pa4X's insert effects, so I can only guess they are not "broken". However, before being able to catch the problems Vex is facing I need some talk with the developers, and see if there is something missing from the documentation, in the programming, or if there is some still unknown bug.

In the meantime, I suggest to start analyzing a Style or Keyboard Set where the Stereo Compressor is used in the way you want to use it, and see if there is something particular in the routing parameters.

Also, since this is a stereo processor applied to a mono channel, I would experiment with the Envelope Select parameter set to "L/R Individually" and use it as a mono processor. I'm not sure there is some side-chain somewhere in the effect's path.

Another parameter to try, since the audio example you posted sounds like an overcompression artifact, is the Wet/Mix balance, changing the amount of processed signal in the insert.

Paolo

gewa13 · Joined: 08 Dec 2015 Posts: 18

alfaholic · Guest Joined: 19 Oct 2011 Posts: 23

Thank you Paolo.

As I already said, Insert Effects do work in a sense that you can use them, but how they work is a different question. Specifically, Stereo Compressor simply do not work as it should, you can test it by yourself and compare it with the same Stereo Compressor used as a Master Effect, it will work different.
If used as a Master Effect it will work as it should, the same as before, but if used as an Insert Effect it will squash the sounds, and it will compress very hard.

This is Stereo Compressor and it is applied to stereo Drum Track, also it is very simple effect with only two parameters to set, Attack and Sensitivity. There is no Threshold, Ratio, Input, Knee or SideChain to try some other routing option or configuration.

WET/DRY balance is not available in Stereo Compressor, and even if it is that has nothing to do with the signal entering compressor, it just regulates the mix of the processed and unprocessed signal.
Stereo Compressor must work the same as an Insert or Master effect, because when used as a Master, DRY checkbox is unchecked in order to avoid flanger effect because of the effect processor's latency. It is not possible to have parallel compression in Korg Pa.

Thank you Paolo, but we need more info from developers to solve this...
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Paolo@Korg · Korg Italy Joined: 07 Dec 2002 Posts: 1090

Vex · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:16 am Post subject:

Paolo, thank you for replying.

When I started this thread, I have already tried every possible solutions to see where is the problem. I have read the manual and look in every corner of it to see if I'm missing something here, but no success.
I'm using that same Stereo Compressor effect since Pa2x. And as far as I know first styles that are made by Korg which are using Stereo compressor like I'm using for 6 years now, are IN THIS LAST bonus style (pop) Pa4x pack which came out when OS 1.1.0 was released. Except these styles, NONE of factory styles are using stereo compressor effect with insert fx on whole drums track.Even there, in these styles, Stereo compressor is used surgically, not radically like I am. On Pa3x this way of using Stereo compressor is working flawlessly. . I have described in this thread how to compare this same effect in Pa4x and hear the difference. Korg developers should try and they will hear the same problem. (Overcompressed sound coming from using Stereo compressor on drum track with a default effect settings).

To be clear with this, I have tried to do, in combination and separately, for the test purpose :
1. Change Wet/dry values on Insert Fx ( but first of all that's not do the trick because I want to use full potential of that FX, I want a whole drum track to be fully processed by compressor. I repeat, that is working on Pa3x. Parameter setting must be " Wet" in here. If is in some ratio, there is some "flanger/double" effect sound, caused of mixing dry and processed signal, so, this even if it is working (but it's not) it is not an option.
2. Lowering input in compressor by lowering drum track
3. Lowering drum kit in Sound/Amp for - 5-20db (random values, to see if there is any change)
4. Tried even with EQ trim in Compressor settings and EQ trim in Mixer( but this is a Post effect parameter, and I even tried that)

... And in every situation this overcompressed sound is present, drum track sound with lower volume, but again, that overcompressed sound remains Healthy sound only appears in situation (described on previous page in this thread) when I use Stereo compressor on Master FX, and route signal to be fully processed by compressor effect ( untick Dry and send every drum family through Master FX where compressor is set.

I hope that Korg devepers will investigate this issue after holidays and I would be glad to hear any kind of news about it.
I was right about HDD sleep issue on Pa4x,didn't I? Smile

Thank you again in advance Korg team and all good people here!
Greetings.
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gargy · Joined: 11 Sep 2012 Posts: 49

alfaholic · Guest Joined: 19 Oct 2011 Posts: 23

Thank you Paolo.

As Vex already said, there is a latency issue with Korg FX processor so it is impossible to use Stereo Compressor for parallel compression.

I would just like to correct Vex, parallel compression would solve this problem because then we would be able to mix unprocessed and processed signal so we would be able to get even better results, but as I can see making FX processor without latency is just too much to ask from Korg.

Vex mentioned something very important, lowering drum kit volume in Sound do not affect Stereo Compressor input signal, which is by it self against laws of physics.
The only thing that can make this possible is that Stereo Compressor have some normalisation before compression, which was never the case with Master FX because they were POST fader, so when we turn down volume in Mixer, we get less compression because input signal strength is reduced.

We need more time for testing, but only developers can help us with this.
I am sorry that only advanced users are affected with this so there is no many people complaining about this, which can make us look silly, but this is a real thing and real problem for us which can force us to sell Pa4X.

Thank you all...
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Vex · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:02 am Post subject:

Paolo@Korg · Korg Italy Joined: 07 Dec 2002 Posts: 1090

Hi Vex and alfaholic,