Korg Forums

jeremykeys · Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:53 pm Post subject: Is pitch correction necessary?

I thought I'd try and start a discussion about something that's been on my mind for some time now. Pitch correction in vocals.

Myself, I really think that if you are going to sing, then learn how to sing in pitch. But that's just me. I'm an old curmudgeon and it took more than 2 decades to get used to the idea of sequencing piano tracks. I figured you should just play them correctly.
I also know that today almost all music has been adjusted and corrected to the point where it's absolutely perfect. I'm not a fan. Mind you, I much prefer listening to bands like "The Pretty Reckless" than any of the Pop princesses out there. That's just me.

What's your opinion?
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Bald Eagle · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:10 am Post subject:

Pretty much everything else can be tweaked so why exclude vocals. I don't see any harm in a little pitch correction. But a singer should be able to sing in perfect pitch most of the time.

Bertotti · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:00 pm Post subject:

I am always disappointed when a person live voice doesn't match the recorded voice. I like singers that don't need pitch corrections but in the end of it is on the radio and sounds good either way won't bother me.

SanderXpander · Platinum Member Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860

Perfect pitch is practically impossible. I record lots of professional vocalists and there just is no such thing. Name your favorite singer and I'll find off notes for you. That doesn't mean that you have to fix every note, nor that any amount of near-pitchness is good enough. I dislike blanket autotuning unless you really want to use it as an effect (which I kinda hate too) but fixing a note here and there in an otherwise strong performance only enhances it, in my opinion. Just gotta take care not to overdo it. Use your ears, not the screen or a general setting. Being able to quickly lift that one flat-ish note has the added benefit of making the performer feel even more secure that anything they do will come out right, so they feel comfortable which leads to better takes. Your mileage may vary.

I mostly use Sonar and Melodyne 4. I really like the workflow - select a passage, hit CTRL+M and Melodyne opens up with that passage already loaded. Nudge whatever note you feel was the culprit and close. Takes maybe five seconds. If it takes more than fifteen and it's annoying enough, I use a different take or if I don't have a good one, tell them to sing it again.

Also, it depends a lot on the character of the voice and the style of music. Some vocals I wouldn't touch at all, even if they would be considered badly out of tune in another style. Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, etc. There can be a charm to dirty intonation.

Derek Cook · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:55 pm Post subject:

I record vocals with a local singer, who is sometimes very nervous when recording.

Sometimes, if it's not working, we'll do a "guide" take and I may pitch correct certain notes to get it how I want it sung. That then is a guide vocal for her to learn against (with original material you don't have a reference until you create it! Wink

). So sometimes there I do quite a bit of editing, but it's worth it to convey what you want; which is hard for to try and sing it myself, as I do not have her range!

When recording "properly" we'll record 3 takes and do some comping if needed. That allows me to avoid pitch correcting apart from when there is the odd off note in an otherwise perfect take. If musicians can drop in to create the odd duff part of a take, then why not use tools like pitch correction when needed.

But I agree it should not be used to correct every single note!

I also agree with what Sander is saying. Flaws can be part of character. My guitar playing is a little like that. There are some parts I know I could do better, but I kind of liked how they turned out, and a lot of commercial tracks (even classic ones) have flaws in them. So that is where you need to be critical but not correct for everything you here. As a player in a Pink Floyd tribute act, I know the PULSE album (our set reference) inside out and back to front, including the "jazz" notes.

And I must be old, because I hate the use of autotune as an effect. Wink

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SanderXpander · Platinum Member Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860

I would also like to add that the fascination with pitch is a misrepresentation of the "issue". It's often said that anyone can sound good with the right amount of pitch correction but that's only partly true. Anyone can sound "on pitch" KINDA, with the "right" amount of pitch correction but NO amount of pitch correction can fix a bad timbre, truly shaky intonation or bad technique. I'm pretty good at Melodyning by now and have a fair idea of what it can and cannot.

jeremykeys · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:08 pm Post subject:

you are all pretty much saying exactly the same thing as what I've been saying for a long time now.
I was also hoping to hear from some of the proponents for pitch correction but so far none have appeared here. Oh well.

I don't have melodyne but I somewhat interested in the latest version that can do a lot to fix up bad timing. I have a singer/songwriter recording in my studio and they've never ever played to a click track or metronome. They just play and sing and hope for the best. They want me to build a drum track onto what they've done and it might be possible but Yikes! It's a ton and a half of work. No 2 bars are at the same speed.
What happens is that then you really notice the timing changes.

I won't get into the pitch issues but at least they're not that bad.
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats!

SanderXpander · Platinum Member Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860

The latest Melodyne supposedly has great tempo detection. I haven't used it yet. You can apparently also map it straight into Sonar. Seems very cool.
But singers and timing, I dunno. Would be tough since they're supposed to drift a little here and there. Maybe first map out their song, then build the drum track the way you're used to and then retrack the singer?

I work with a bunch of hiphop dudes who put autotune on everything. I don't really like it but by now it's become part of the style. It just doesn't sound right if you leave it off anymore. The same way a mix with no reverb at all would sound weird/off.

I personally prefer the surgical approach though!

jeremykeys · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:46 am Post subject:

I know what you mean. I think it was T Pain who really got Hip Hop going with full on auto tune. Not my thing at all but what can I say. I'm not using Sonar. I haven't seen the need to yet. Maybe one day down the road.
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats!

voip · Platinum Member Joined: 27 Nov 2014 Posts: 3773

With a really fat backing track, with lots of detuned "oscillators", be they synths or actual instruments, especially when the detuning is drifting via LFO by quite a lot, it can be quite a challenge for a singer to hit pitch perfect the actual intended note being played, and they should be forgiven for being unintentionally a few cents "off" either way in those situations. Giving the singer(s) a dominant on-pitch oscillator to work to, either via in-ear, or monitor speaker in front, would probably help their pitching efforts greatly.

.

SanderXpander · Platinum Member Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860

The thing is the singer only needs to be in tune with the track. Not some theoretical "perfect" pitch. If you can't hear exactly what the right pitch is because your track is full of detuned stuff, the singer only needs to be near enough to not be able to tell if it's off or not.

Or, as my saxophone playing friend said, "You don't REALLY need to tune a saxophone. If you can hear when you're off, you can compensate. And if you can't hear when you're off, it's a lost battle anyway".

jeremykeys · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:16 pm Post subject:

Derek Cook · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:12 pm Post subject:

voip · Platinum Member Joined: 27 Nov 2014 Posts: 3773

Yes I see where you're coming from, guys.

I do recall one rather public pitch disaster. It was the UK entry to Eurovision a few years ago - Jemini - Cry Baby.

.

jeremykeys · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:44 am Post subject:

I think if your ears aren't working, perhaps choose another career! Smile

I'm not saying being in tune absolutely helps, there are a lot of "style" singers who can get away with it, on the other hand, there are more singers who can't!
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats!