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Do the new analogs really sound like analogs of old?
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aron
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:03 pm    Post subject: Do the new analogs really sound like analogs of old? Reply with quote

Here's a contentious question. Obviously the new keyboards ARE pure analog, so they do sound "analog". But do they really sound like the analogs of old that we remember?

I went to this awesome place called 5G Music which had a TON of vintage stuff in Harajuku, Japan. I played the CS-15 and that synth had a sound! You could hear everything that reminded you of a real old mono synth.

Then I played the newer keyboards like the minilogue and even the Solaris (no fair - not good speakers) and some of the Dave Smith and they sound more "sterile".
I mean, I will admit that even my Pro One sounds more sterile than my Micromoog. I will also state that my Matrix 6 sounded way more sterile than my OB-X.

To me, yes, the new keyboards are analog but they sound way more tame. My Micromoog sounds so good compared to the newer mono synths - just the basic character, filter and modulation.

Do you agree or???
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends what you mean. Some new (or old now) synths are virtual analog (e.g Kronos AL1, MS20 and Polysix ). Or are you just referring to synths with a pure analog signal path?

The CS15 was my first synth in 1982 but I sold it (at a profit in 2008) as my AN1x (purchased for half the price I sold the CS for!) could nail its character without breaking into a sweat. I recreated every sound I ever made on the CS15 (and had the patch charts for), and it does not sound sterile. Warm and fat is how I would describe it.

Indeed, somebody has just posted on the AN1x Yahoo group some patches that (to my ears) nail THAT sounds that Vangelis was getting out of a CS80 for his "Bladerunner brass"! And to get that "organic" Vangelis sound out of a VA is not bad in my opinion!

Certainly not bad for a 20 year old VA that was one of the first Smile I still love my AN1x Very Happy

Likewise, my Nord G2 Engine (modular synth in a 1U rack) still sounds awesome.

Back to Korg, I think their AL1, MS20 and Polysix emulations in the Kronos have bags of character and warmth.
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amit
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your observations are correct.
Its the same with the Old Radios, Guitar Amplifiers etc.

One of the primary reasons for this is technical evolution.
The Technology and quality today has improved many many folds.
We are Technically Superior than ever, though it does not scale well with sonics.

If you take the bare bone components like the resistors, capacitors etc, they all have their tolerances, It's common to find even old military grade components with tolerances as high as 10% (upto 20% for consumer grade). The variance/inaccuracies in these components impart their character onto the signal.

Today's components are much technically superior well within (1%-2%) for even consumer grade, they are too accurate, and technically they deliver a much more true/superior representation of the actual circuit, however have different sonic characteristics, which you can term as sterile, or not as raw, lacking that bite..

Try comparing same synth manufactured within around 20 years gap (it is very likely you'd find some tone difference.)

You'd infact could find tonal difference between two synths from same generation if they used components from different manufactures on same stages.

Take two synths from today, and you'd find them very close in tonality.

If you build a vintage synth/amp with schematics today with the current components available in the market, You can bet it will have a different flavor, It'd be in same ballpark but just not the same.

You even perhaps could get some better sound out of some decent VA's than some analogs.

Take Kronos for example,Sure it sounds decent,but to me its a bit too Hi-Fi Sounding at times, but The Mod-7 Engine there are some DX-7 patches that gave me goosebumps, they didn't have anything special, but they kinda hit you in the face and have that bite that is only felt.

You' are lucky to have some good analog gear, Stick with it , it's never gonna be made again. Smile
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aron
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> it does not sound sterile. Warm and fat is how I would describe it

I have heard the AN1x does sound good. But I guess I am also talking about how smooth the LFO and modulation sounds. With the analog gear there is significant distortion and harmonics that I don't hear in the newer instruments.
I admit, I have never heard an AN1x - I hope to try one soon.

Amit,

Yes, I am lucky in that I have a Micromoog, Minimoog, OB-1, Odyssey, Pro One etc.... and I am OLD. So I remember the sound of the original problematic instruments. I guess they were just out of tune and had significant distortion but they sounded great and slightly unpredictable!
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've been through this debate quite recently and I need to be careful what I say Smile

I'll add this: There are examples of particular models of synths from the 70's and 80's that are true classics - we all know them - the Minimoog, P5, ARP2600, VCS3, CS80,.... they sound wonderful, strong, characterful and unique. But there were lots of duds from that era too!


As for the AN1x - I'm literally going through a very lengthy process of 'optimising' all of my synthesizers - and by that I mean auditioning just about every sound there is available for each given synth and selecting from those what I believe are the very best, for my music. I'm doing that as we speak for the AN1x. I do it on and off when I get a chance - but it takes months for a given synth. In the case of the AN1x I have auditioned between two to three thousand programs and have selected the best 5 - 600 of those, categorised into new 'optimised banks' using Derek Cook's amazing an.factory software.

I have owned the AN1x since new in the late 90s', but because it only has one bank of 128 programs and no data storage device, it has been a huge frustration because there has been nowhere to save new programs without great effort - but - this exercise of finally auditioning all available programs for it has been nothing short of a revelation. You may know that it has particularly low aliasing oscillators - so it sounds very clean even on the top end - and I can tell you that the very best programs for it are truly amazing. The AN1x, at its best, competes with the very, very best VA's out today, and in my opinion, far better than most of them.

It can genuinely sound exactly like a minimoog, basses are stunning, pads glistening, leads are jaw-dropping. I could go on. I can't quite believe its strength, and the sheer depth and breath of outstanding programs available for it (and its capability of delivering them). I'm hugely excited by the prospect of having these amazing programs finally set in banks ready for selection in projects. It's like having a whole new instrument of truly sublime quality.
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BasariStudios
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After finishing my Modular now with all Analog Paths which includes the whole
AJH MiniMoog line of the early Model-D with 3 VCOs, the VCA, the Contours
and the VCF, plus my DPO which is a Buchla Style, i got the SH-101 EGs
and also the VCF-74 Filter from the MS-20/M700...i don't think i'll be thinking
about any VAs or Kronoses for long time...i heard it and felt it now...and compared it.
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aron
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the AN1X must be great. I passed on it long ago, not because of the sound, but because I wanted controls like a Minimoog or Pro One.
I will probably track one down at some point.

But my original question was about true analog synths - the newer ones. They've corrected all the "issues" and they sound a lot more sterile to me. Like the way the Matrix 6 sounded sterile compared to my OB-X.
They've fixed all the problems!
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Broadwave
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not so easy to compare an old analogue to a new one... the main factor is due to component ageing. New analogues are far more stable, as components are now made to higher standards, they don't have gunk build up (dust, beer etc), they've not been switched on/off thousands of times or been poorly repaired over the years.

But in the end, none of it matters - if a synth sounds and performs how YOU want it to, then it's all good.

I'll quite often create a patch on my 2600 or Minimoog, then recreate it on the Kronos - by the time it's been processed and mixed,, you'd be hard pushed to know what's what.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aron wrote:
I guess the AN1X must be great. I passed on it long ago, not because of the sound, but because I wanted controls like a Minimoog or Pro One.
I will probably track one down at some point.

But my original question was about true analog synths - the newer ones. They've corrected all the "issues" and they sound a lot more sterile to me. Like the way the Matrix 6 sounded sterile compared to my OB-X.
They've fixed all the problems!


I dont' agree that its the imperfections of, and problems with analogue that give it its character. Sure, the lack of perfection in precise detuning and so forth add an organic quality that is indeed important, but that's different to a synthesizer that's plain unreliable. My CS80's are KSR restored to better than new condition. By that I mean - they do not go out of tune, and he places hundreds of decoupling capacitors through out them to capture any static issues known historically for causing its myriad of CMOS chips to blow.

So my CS80s are stable, in tune and reliable. And they are still absolutely amazing.

I realise this is a can of worms - but for me these are the points that contribute to the notion that analogue can be amazing:

1. No digitization / quantization of the sound or parameters so none of the issues that plagued earlier programmable analogye synths, digital synths and VAs - such as phase locked oscillators (that 'twang' then two digital oscialltors sound that kills the thickness associated with detuned oscillators); and aliasing problems,....

2. The classic analogue synth came from a new, uninhibited and experimental era so some of them just emerged as great designs, with, as said, many duds too.

3. There was (in many instances) a greater emphasis on performance design and control in the 70's in particular - and that contributes to the greatness of many synths from that era.

But I have to say - I think the following synths from today are equal to the best of those in the past: Nord Lead, Virus, DSI Pro2, OB6, Oberheim 2-Voice, Moog Sub37. If any of those had been released in the past I do think they'd be regarded as classics today, and some of them - the NL2, Virus and Sub37 in particular - I believe are destined for classic status far into the future.

My 2-pennys worth.


Last edited by Kevin Nolan on Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
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fcoulter
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amit wrote:
If you take the bare bone components like the resistors, capacitors etc, they all have their tolerances, It's common to find even old military grade components with tolerances as high as 10% (upto 20% for consumer grade). The variance/inaccuracies in these components impart their character onto the signal.


This caused a trip down memory lane.

For those old fogies out there, you should remember when an analog synthesizer was equivalent to a voltage controlled synthesizer. The voltage controlled oscillators were designed (generally) to work so that a 1 volt increase in the input produced a 1 octave increase (double the frequency) in the output.

To produce that nice change, the keyboard generally had a resister between each key, and was calibrated so that you'd have a three volt drop from one end of the other. The problem, of course, is that you needed as close to identical resistances for each of the resisters.

I remember my father buying a crap ton of "identical" resistors and then measuring the resistance of each one on a digital volt meter. Lots of bins to separate them out. Once he had enough of them with identical resistances for the keyboard, we wired it up. The extras? Well, we weren't the only people making synths in those days -- remember when Emu sold the guts of synth modules -- so he made back his costs by selling matched resister sets.

Those were the days...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aron, you use the term sterile throughout so I'm sure you're identifying something specific about the sound, but still it is an impression that might be subjective. Of course all analogs sound different because of intentional design differences. The only way to seriously compare is through blind testing in a controlled environment. [As a side, do this experiment sometime. Play an B3 organ sound from a waterfall keyboard and then trigger it from a weighted keyboard. If you're like me your impression of the sound will change and you'll sense the weighted version has more depth to it even though it is the identical sound. Factors other than sound, e.g. slight volume differences, can greatly influence our impressions of sound.]

I have the new Minimoog Model D (s/n 118). As Gordon Reid put it in his SOS review, you could say it sounds different than an original D, but you would be wrong. Moog went to great lengths to ensure this instrument retains that classic sound, even have certain critical obsolete electrical components remanufactured.

The presets on VAs are typically drenched in FXs. I used to have the SuperNova, which many raved about. Key to its sound was the FXs engine which allowed multiple FXs to be layered though some, like the reverb, were horrible. But without the FXs, it was pretty damn limp. I have the Virus TI desktop. It's OK, but I rarely use it as I gravitate towards NI Massive if I'm making tracks. That's my biggest bitch when it comes to hardware VAs. They're stuck in the past. The Nord Lead and Virus came into existence when RAs were no longer being made. They emulated RA functionality but didn't really go beyond. Hell, even the new analog Behringer DeepMind 12 has the ability to loop any point in the ADSR. If the envelope generator is done in software, why not use that to your advantage rather than simply emulating restrictions peculiar to hardware. Massive (and other VSTis) go far beyond with a huge variety of waveforms, filters and complex EGs, yet maintain the structure of a classic analog synth.

I don't have the patience to keep old 70s/80s analogs alive and functioning. Many, in particular many of the Curtis chip analogs, don't do that much for me any way. Some people will hear a Curtis chip poly and rave about how fat it sounds. To me, many of the implementations sound harsh. I have the Studio Electronics Omega 8 and I think it's one of the most beautiful polys ever made. It's discrete, which is a rarity, though becoming more common nowadays. If this sounds sterile to your ear, fine. To me it sounds wonderful. As they say, if this is wrong I don't want to be right.

https://soundcloud.com/studio-electronics/i-dont-have-to-tell-her-instr

I also agree with BasariStudios that eurorack is a great place to go for some really excellent options in the analog hardware space.

Busch.
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aron
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Busch,

I was going to go there and I think you are right. For my analog guitar gear, we sometimes do discrete op amps and it does sound more "alive". I think that's what I might be hearing, the difference between discrete circuits vs an IC chip. Maybe that's what I am hearing with the Micro vs Pro One even though they are totally different - I can hear the huge difference in oscillators. I don't know if my OB-X was discrete, but I believe the SEM was.
I don't have that much time either, but it's really fun sometimes to keep this old analog gear running. I never realized it was "close" to guitar circuits so at least I have that much knowledge to keep them running.
That being said, time to change the bushings on my Pro One. Can't wait to have that Pratt-Read keyboard running smooth!

fcoulter,

>I remember my father buying a crap ton of "identical" resistors and then measuring the resistance of each one on a digital volt meter.

Cool! Yeah, in the guitar world we match FETs and transistors as well!
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ErnstDabest
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broadwave wrote:


I'll quite often create a patch on my 2600 or Minimoog, then recreate it on the Kronos - by the time it's been processed and mixed,, you'd be hard pushed to know what's what.


Ok. aren't you a little grown to still believe in fairytales.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I see a post with this topic, I always think, "Hmmm, I think you already answered your own question".

The old vintage analogs each sounded slightly different unit to unit, and
also because of their filters and audio outputs. Some had a lot of noise on the audio outputs and back in those days, a lot of us just accepted that as "the sound that came out of it". Audio converters these days
are cleaner and actually much better, maybe that contributes to the "sterile" complaint.

I've had discussions like this with Dave Smith himself. His reply was always along the lines of "I designed the original Prophet, if anyone knows what it should sound like, it would be me".

Frankly, dissecting the sound of a "new" analogue synth is a waste of time exercised by people who really have too much time on their hands. I'm 63, bought my very first Minimoog back in 1975, my first Rhodes Suitcase in 1972, and my first Hammond B3 in 1978. Since then I've owned (and sold) a Prophet 600, Sequential Pro-One, Prophet T8, a Polymoog, a Roland Jupiter 6, a Korg PolySix, a Korg CX-3, A Yamaha DX9, DX7II, a Roland D-50, several Yamaha synths, and a Prophet 08. Do I care now if
a new analogue synth sounds exactly the old originals. No.
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Broadwave
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ErnstDabest wrote:
Broadwave wrote:


I'll quite often create a patch on my 2600 or Minimoog, then recreate it on the Kronos - by the time it's been processed and mixed,, you'd be hard pushed to know what's what.


Ok. aren't you a little grown to still believe in fairytales.


Why would you say that? There's nothing special about the Minimoog that, if you understand what you're doing, can't be replicated using AL-1... and please don't mention the Moogs VCF. Once you know how to control the Kronos' filter resonance with an envelope, you can pretty much nail it.

The 2600 is obviously far more complex, but you can still get great results.
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