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Behringer new Model D
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Ksynth
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Behringer new Model D Reply with quote

http://cdm.link/2017/03/behringer-to-make-an-analog-minimoog-clone-for-around-400/

Since the classic synth has made a resurgence, the entry of low-cost remakes was pretty much a given. And no brand is perhaps more associated with cut-rate gear than Behringer.

So, while the 12-voice Behringer DeepMind 12 has only just arrived on the market, the company is already teasing some kind of sub-$100 synth line a well as the $400-ish (proposed) BEHRINGER D. It’s a clone of the original 1970 Minimoog Model D, in a desktop case (no keyboard).

And, well, it’s … as advertised, at least as far as what they’ve shared. And it puts an analog remake in a price range that approximates the cost of a couple of plug-ins, since Behringer says they’re aiming for “around US$400.”
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Ksynth
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some info from Uli himself as posted on Gerslutz

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/1142144-behringer-mini-model-d-good-idea-24.html

This is a first draft of our "D" Synth with a proposed feature set below.

Our goal is to design in a Poly Chain feature that allows combining up to 16 synths through Midi.

Depending on the feedback we will then decide if we move further and build a first prototype.

Our targeted retail price is around US$ 400.

Analog Synthesizer with 3 VCOs, 24 dB Ladder Filter, LFO, 16-Voice Poly Chain and Eurorack Format

1. Analog synthesizer with triple VCO design
2. Reproduction of original “D Type” with matched transistors and JFETs
3. 0.1% Thin Film resistors and Polyphenyline Sulphide capacitors for frequency stability
4. Analog signal path based on authentic VCO, VCF and VCA designs
5. 5 variable oscillator shapes with pulse width variation
6. Classic 24 dB ladder filter with resonance
7. Fully analog triangle/square wave LFO
8. Switchable low/high pass filter mode
9. 16-voice Midi Poly Chain allows combining multiple synthesizers for up to 16-voice polyphony
10. Overdrive circuit
11. Noise generator
12. Complete Eurorack solution – main module can be transferred to a standard Eurorack case
13. 46 controls for real-time access of all important parameters
14. External audio input for processing external sound sources
15. Low and high level outputs
16. Comprehensive MIDI implementation with MIDI channel and Voice Priority selection
17. 3-Year Warranty Program

Uli
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John01W
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe if they're successful they can put Moog out of business! Wouldn't that be great! Rolling Eyes Build your own stuff Uli and stop fuggin' people over, and don't call it "our" D synth. All will be assimilated! Face palm
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Joe Gerardi
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John01W wrote:
Maybe if they're successful they can put Moog out of business! Wouldn't that be great! Rolling Eyes Build your own stuff Uli and stop fuggin' people over, and don't call it "our" D synth. All will be assimilated! Face palm


So, I'm guessing you would NEVER use a B3 clone, you have to have a real B3...

And NEVER use a VST or VA, right? Only REAL analogs?

And of course, NEVER touch a ROMpler, because that's only samples of other instruments, correct?

Hypocrite much?

..Joe
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John01W
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Gerardi wrote:
John01W wrote:
Maybe if they're successful they can put Moog out of business! Wouldn't that be great! Rolling Eyes Build your own stuff Uli and stop fuggin' people over, and don't call it "our" D synth. All will be assimilated! Face palm


So, I'm guessing you would NEVER use a B3 clone, you have to have a real B3...

And NEVER use a VST or VA, right? Only REAL analogs?

And of course, NEVER touch a ROMpler, because that's only samples of other instruments, correct?

Hypocrite much?

..Joe


Don't rationalize to me....you have your opinion, I have mine and that's the end of it.

BTW, wtf do you get off attacking my character? I don't play the organ, read my name...think that means I have a problem with "romplers"....do you even know how many "romplers" I have(mf are you crazy?)?...I don't care about about VA synths, who cares? You're just making crap up to justify doing something.....create strawman(you're not good at it) with no basis in fact, attack it as if it were real. Laughing

You are certifiable....a word of advice, there are many decaf brands that taste very close to the real thing.


Last edited by John01W on Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fcoulter
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'll just buy a raffle ticket from the Moog Foundation every year. While it would be fun to own a Mini-Moog, I'm not planning on tossing good money at one.
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Koekepan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is brilliant.

I'm cheering Behringer every step of the way.

If I wanted the minimoog sound, he would save me $3,000. Ok, maybe not that totally identical sound - but let's face it, there was considerable variation in the sound of early minimoogs anyway.

What could I do with an extra $3000 (assuming that I even had that cash)? I could buy a lot more eurorack to go with my Behringer. I could buy a 61-key Kronos and a new keyboard stand. I could buy another seven Behringers and polychain them for that 8 voice experience. I could do a whole lot of stuff!

And let's be realistic; I don't have $3000 to spend on a minimoog. Moog, as far as I'm concerned, might be shipping from Mars. It's not a thing that is available to me. Behringer, on the other hand, works. Go ahead, sneer about the fact that I have a Behringer mixer. Let those upper lips wriggle and writhe. I don't even begin to care. I use them, and I make sounds with them, and the responsibility for making those sounds good, rests with me.

As for the tired argument about racing to the bottom, this is so much garbage and provably so. Serious but broke, often young musicians have had to make do with second-rate, second-hand, broken, borrowed or cobbled-together systems since forever. Luthiers, electronic technicians and others have long made cheaper instruments and equipment and less affluent musicians have always availed themselves of those, even while less serious but wealthier musicians have splurged on massive equipment they'll use thirty times a year. How long has the joke been that if you want a new workstation, you should buy it from the widow of a surgeon or dentist?

Now, I have nothing against Moog building the best damn synths they can, the best way they know how, and charging what the market will bear. If they can extract $3400 per Minimoog from their customers, then let them do so. There is no sign whatsoever that they will be going broke, or out of business, or even slowing down. Toyota did not put Mercedes out of business, and shows no sign of ever doing so. Moog is in the same position, but let's be realistic; if I wanted a 5U modular (and I had that kind of money) I would quite simply not get the best bang for my buck from Moog. I would turn to others, such as Moon, or Synthesizers.com because their equipment is much more affordable and much more accessible. It just doesn't have the Moog badge, and some people will pay extra for that branding.

Synth construction is not Highlander. There can be more than one.


Last edited by Koekepan on Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Moog is just about branding - what they deliver is very high quality in terms of material and service. They also have highee costs, operating from the US. It's important for them to have a higher margin per product than Behringer because if you spend upwards of 3k for a product you expect top notch quality in all aspects. If a 400USD Behringer version failed irreparably after a year it'd be a very different feeling from if your 3k Moog did.

All this just to say that I don't think Moog is throwing on an extra thousand "because they are Moog". When push comes to shove, I'm pretty sure the Behringer CEO makes more money off his customer base than the Moog CEO does. Like you said - they each stand for something different, and the buyer can decide. Like you, I'm also applauding Behringer and interested to see the final product. I doubt they're competing in the same market, at least not D to D.
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Kontrol49
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you are buying a Moog,your not just paying for the components,there is a lot of love,care and attention that goes into what they do,this comes through when you own one,its not just about the Name brand,they might seem expensive but the Quality is worth every penny,

I've owned a Voyager for almost 10 years now,although the Voyager is perhaps limited in what it can do compared to more modern Analogs,but there is something gratifying and pleasing about the instrument itself,the basics of the synth are simple but there is just enough to make it such a wonderful synthesizer,I still wouldn't opt for a behringer Option just because it may sound alike.

Good luck to Behringer if they plan to do a clone,thousands will get access to a moog type sound at a cheaper cost,but there will still be a demand for Moog gear irrespective,I doubt it will harm Moogs finances.

Users who buy into the Moog philosophy don't just but it to get that sound,its about the experience and quality,the fact that people are still chasing that Moog sound from a cheaper alternative and Behringer want to make a clone says that there will always be a Demand for Real Moog products,until people are not after a Moog sound then perhaps that would be their downfall and see the demise of Moog,I don't know why Behringer would want to piss on Moogs doorstep just to say "we can do it cheaper" I find that rather Disrespectful and arrogant and making something just for fun of it.

It's a bit like buying a watch...Whilst some may say the Seiko will do the job just as well for a fraction of the cost,but there will still people who buy into the Rolex camp because its more about the quality than just being able to tell the time.
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Koekepan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quality is worth every penny - to some.

There is such a thing as opportunity cost.

Let's suppose that for $400 Behringer brings out a minimoog clone, and let's assume that I want that sound on my stage. I could pay about ten times as much for "love, care and attention" or I could pay twice as much for the Behringer - and a second Behringer because things break on the road and it makes sense to have a spare. What would I do with the money left over? Who knows? I might get an oil change for the van. I might get a few sixpacks for the road crew. I might buy a new sound source such as an Access Virus, or an Integra 7. If I bought the genuine Moog, all those options would be off the table. That's what's meant by opportunity cost, and to the working musician who is not wealthy enough, that's a cost to count.

Uli has been very clear about his motivations, by the way. It is not to do with pissing on Moog's doorstep, as you so pungently put it, but about making working gear available to working musicians. He has said so, loudly, repeatedly, to anybody who will listen, and he has made good on his word. You can get very affordable (by the standards of other manufacturers) and acceptable quality gear from Behringer, and he's been getting better at it over the years. Maybe he just wants to enable musicians. Maybe he's angry about having been unable to get the goods himself in the past. Maybe he's a diabolical, moustache-twirling villain in a top hat, cape and silver-headed cane, plotting to undermine the artisanal instrument industry. Who cares? I can get functional gear at realistic prices.

And lest we forget, some of the most iconic equipment of our current generation became so because it ended up in the hands of poor kids who forged new musical paths with it in their hands. Who would be so sure that Behringer's creations won't enable the next generation?
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uli is in it to make money. So is everyone else. There's ideals and passion but ultimately he wants to have a successful company so if he sees an opportunity he'll take it. I'm excited about a 400USD Model D clone, even though I have a Voyager and a vintage Micro. I honestly don't think it's a threat to Moog, at least not to the Model D reissue or even the Sub 37. If you want a top notch product with a smooth as butter keyboard you don't buy the Behringer D eurorack. If you don't want to spend that much but like the Mini sound, you might get one. But you were never gonna spend Moog money then anyway. It's more a threat to the Novation Bass Station reissue or even the softsynth market than it is to Moog.
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John01W
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are rationalizing like crazy, but it's gonna hurt Moog....lets not bs ok Laughing I have no skin in this game, I don't want a minimoog and I don't have one either.

Uli could make an entirely new synth so why do you think he rips off the minimoog instead? So he can take Moog's market...because people want it but don't want to pay for it lol. Stop with the BS lol. The guy is a vampire, he's just moving to a new market to plunder.....he'll dangle that carrot in front of people and they'll twist themselves into pretzels rationalizing it. Moog is a small company doing it right, and we all owe Bob for the innovations that we take for granted today.

If Behringer's most blatant ripoff products were songs, he'd have been run out of the business and have his balls busted since the beginning, twice on sunday....and rightfully so.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SanderXpander wrote:
Uli is in it to make money. So is everyone else. There's ideals and passion but ultimately he wants to have a successful company so if he sees an opportunity he'll take it. I'm excited about a 400USD Model D clone, even though I have a Voyager and a vintage Micro. I honestly don't think it's a threat to Moog, at least not to the Model D reissue or even the Sub 37. If you want a top notch product with a smooth as butter keyboard you don't buy the Behringer D eurorack. If you don't want to spend that much but like the Mini sound, you might get one. But you were never gonna spend Moog money then anyway. It's more a threat to the Novation Bass Station reissue or even the softsynth market than it is to Moog.


I agree. I also think ts pointless to fight capitalism. The dollar or various currencies, and all the corporations are ' amoral '. If they see a profit opportunity they will take advantage.

I Use to own a MiniMoog in the 70's ( got stolen). I have no interest in getting another one. A $400 copycat from Behringer does not bother me, either. If folks get excited about that, thats ok by me.

We have so many great choices these days. I have said us keyboardists live in the best of times.

we are surrounded by an embarrassment of riches ( this is an idiom)
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/an+embarrassment+of+riches
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Koekepan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know that all this would hurt Moog. It's called market segmentation. The same people who buy a Bentley aren't spending a lot of time kicking the tyres of Hyundais. Similarly, the price structure of Behringer's proposed mooclone puts it in an entirely different bracket (by an actual order of decimal magnitude). People who are considering a Moog as their next purchase are not the same cash-constrained people assembling their rickety bedroom studios.

But sure, what the hell, let's say that Behringer brings out (yet another!) clone of the minimoog, and suddenly this is somehow the clone that will make people stop buying the actual Moog device because ... some handwaving reason. All the previous clones didn't, but amazingly this is the one clone that will hurt Moog, as opposed to helping it by adding to the Moog mystique. So what? Should I be incensed that the Mazda Miata is somehow driving Ferrari out of business? (Except for the fact that it really is not.) This is market competition.

And sure, Count Uli von Behringer is a vampire! A monster! He sucks the blood of the innocent! And ... I can get a synth for cheaper. Cry me a river. Unless I suddenly start winning Grammies, Moog wasn't going to be getting much of my money anyhow. As far as I'm concerned, they're not one penny poorer for Behringer bringing out a clone.

And let's investigate the other side: why should I buy a Moog? Why should I lay out thousands of dollars (that I don't have) on a thing that will do what plenty of much cheaper software will do? Should I give the money to Moog because of good karma and warm, fuzzy feelings? Why should I buy one genuine, Moog-branded minimoog when for less money I could buy every Volca, an MS-20 mini, plus MIDI thru boxes and a KORG Kross to sequence them all? Why should I buy a $3500 (from Sweetwater's online price) monosynth when I could buy a brand new Kronos for $3000 (Sweetwater, again) that can emulate several monosynths at once as well as everything else on its plate? Because the good folks at Moog are just such golly-gee, aw-shucks doggone nice guys?

On a cost effectiveness scale, it's insane.

If you want to watch an exercise in rationalisation, look for the people weeping and wailing in anguish and wishing for the market and free enterprise to be suspended, to the clear practical disadvantage of the purchasing public, because of emotional attachment to some iconic ideal.

It's called free enterprise. Learn to cope.
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moog: My Minitaur consistently sounds good; it's the fattener in my MIDI rig, besting even the polyphonic OB-6 in bottom end. I plan on getting a Slim Phatty for around $500 for leads and stuff.

Behringer: My XR18 digital mixer is an incredible stage box, with quality and functionality and portability out the wazoo. The FCB1010 is crucial to my playing style. The B1200D is an excellent, portable and cost-effective sub for half of my bass rig and gigging PA needs.

A co-worker spent about $3.5k on the Moog Model D re-issue. Granted it has 3 oscillators versus the 2 in the Minitaur or the Slim Phatty, but is it really worth the extra $3k from a functionality point? Of course not. It's a status thing. The thing doesn't even have patch memory! And he doesn't even gig or record. Just has disposable income and always wanted a Moog.

Point is, Moog makes quality stuff, but has been bettered in many areas but not bested in a certain niche. Behringer, and now Music Group, makes a multitude of affordable gear for musicians, including a few originals. Both are contributing to the musician, and both survive the marketplace. I look forward to the Behringer Model D.
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