Korg Forums

[danmusician]

Since you're doing instrumental tracks from the Kronos without recording audio tracks, you could do this project pretty easily with just the Kronos.

The big advantage to using a DAW is that it's easier to edit your tracks. You also see so much more information on the screen.

If I were doing a project like yours, here is how I'd do it:

I'd use the DAW to record MIDI tracks of my performance. Edit the MIDI performance as needed. When tracks are ready, I'd record them as audio tracks in the DAW. Then mix to stereo tracks and you're good to go.
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Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49

[danmusician]

Regarding the CD/DL comments:

I travel in music ministry performing worship concerts and leading worship. I make recordings of my music available at no charge. The music is posted on my website for free download.

At a concert, I make cards available with the web address and a scan code that will take you to the website on your phone. I have 2-CD sets available for people who can't or don't want to download. I also announce that all my music is on the website. The CDs contain as much as I could fit on 2 discs.

More people opt for the CDs than DLs. I've been doing this for 11 years. At first I thought it was just older people taking the CDs. Over the years, I've observed that age doesn't make much difference.
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Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49

[4GodnWV]

Dan musician, et al:

What I am familiar with...
Using a small portable digital studio such as https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DP24SD

Record scratch piano part on ch 1
Record EP on ch 2
Record strings section (combi) on ch 3
Record horn section (combi) on ch 4
Record an 8 measure solo flute part on ch 5
Etc etc
Send the finished project to SD card, CD burner, etc

If I understand correctly, a DAW replaces the digital studio, but then so does the Kronos. i.e. I have no need for that item.

What I am uncertain of is, can I record a combi w/several timbres on a single track on the Kronos like I could the digital studio? I assume I can do that with a DAW, but perhaps not.

You wrote:
"I'd use the DAW to record MIDI tracks of my performance. Edit the MIDI performance as needed. When tracks are ready, I'd record them as audio tracks in the DAW."

Do I understand correctly that the DAW can record midi data such as note on, note off, velocity, etc and record program data as well (say I am using 8 timbres in a combi) - If that is the case, wouldn't I have to the Kronos sync'd to the DAW to retrieve the proper tones? (I realize my terminology is probably incorrect as I really don't understand or speak midi)

At any rate, ignoring the midi, and assuming that I can record a combi on just one track using the Kronos, the advantage of the DAW is basically a better way to edit tracks? For example, remove a bad note and replace it with the proper one.

Thanks to all for patiently turning on some lights for me.

4God

[SanderXpander]

If by "record program data" you mean that the DAW can remember which programs are used on the Kronos than that is true but with a few quite important caveats. Firstly, in its most basic mode, any DAW will be able to remember the LOCATION of your programs through a standardized set of instructions called "program changes". Basically, the DAW remembers a code that says "bank 33 program 37". I don't know by heart which number corresponds to which Kronos bank but it's in the manual somewhere, I'm sure people who do this regularly can help you out. But as you may understand, just remembering the location of the program isn't always enough as you may edit programs or move them around. There is an alternative in the form of the Kronos Editor which comes with a plug-in that you can open in your DAW IF you install a 32-bit version of your DAW. Most people have moved to 64-bit DAWs because in 32-bit you're limited to using 4GB of RAM (in the DAW). Unfortunately the free Kronos editor doesn't come in a 64-bit version and there is no reliable way of opening it in a 64-bit DAW. There is a paid upgrade to the "full" version of MidiQuest (the parent program of the Kronos Editor so to speak) that does support 64-bit, but it isn't cheap. A few hundred euros I think and you woulnd't use most features (it's a universal editor for almost all midi gear).

So, how to solve this? Various sub-optimal ways exist.
1. Don't edit sounds, lame.
2. Use a 32-bit DAW and the Kronos Editor, lame.
3. Date your songs and save a PCG on the Kronos when you're working on the song. Load that PCG when you want to continue working on the song. Lots of work but if done meticulously, works very well.
4. Don't get too attached to the specific Kronos sounds. If it's "a lead" you need, does it really need to be that lead or will one that's kinda close do too when you get to the mixing stage?
5. Use VST instruments instead of Kronos sounds altogether.
6. Record and edit/finish a midi performance in one go (just that track, not the entire song). Then record the audio version. That way you'll always have THAT sound as well as the midi performance if you do need to change something (but you'll need to find the sound again, obviously).

I hope this doesn't sound too complicated for you.

One thing about your workflow struck me, that is that you are expecting to record multiple combis. You can do this, but only as audio. As long as you're working with the Kronos sounds, you're limited to using 16 tracks at a time in a single song. While it is possible to change sounds on any of those 16 tracks in the course of the song, that is an involved process, especially if you want to change 8 of them (strings to horns) including FX while leaving another (the piano part?) running.

The usual solution is to do exactly what you did with the portastudio - record a combi on a stereo audio track. You can still record midi first and edit it - but then play back the midi and record the audio.

You also mention at the end of your post:
"At any rate, ignoring the midi, and assuming that I can record a combi on just one track using the Kronos, the advantage of the DAW is basically a better way to edit tracks? For example, remove a bad note and replace it with the proper one. "
While certainly possible, it's a lot trickier to remove one bad note of AUDIO than it is to remove one in MIDI. MIDI notes have no sound, you can delete and rearrange and edit them any way you like and the synthesizer will play them back as if they were always that way. If you make a cut in a piece of audio you have to make sure you make it sound smooth - it either has to be a place where there are no note overlaps or you need to fix it with reverb and fades etc.
You usually revert to this when you don't have access to a MIDI performance at all. Like with vocals, acoustic guitar, live drums etc.

[4GodnWV]

Sander,

The GREAT thing about this vista of opportunity is the seemly unending array of options. The BAD thing about this vista of opportunity is the seemly unending array of options. lol

I have been working on orchestral combis since I go my Kronos. While keeping all of the original programs and combis that came pre-loaded on the Kronos, I have created quite a few variations, allowing for different tonalities as I work through a piece. I really don't want to give that up.

I know that I can accomplish my goal "the old fashioned way", but I am also intrigued with some of the tones offered by Native Instruments as well as Omnisphere. When I determined that to use those programs effectively I was going to have to delve into VST's and DAW's it seemed a good idea to kill two birds, so to speak. I am beginning to think that it might be better for me to approach this Christmas project with either a DAW that I can use in lieu of a digital mixer or just skip the DAW and record one track at a time using the mixer.

You Wrote:
"4. Don't get too attached to the specific Kronos sounds. If it's "a lead" you need, does it really need to be that lead or will one that's kinda close do too when you get to the mixing stage?"

That's the rub, I am as picky about tone as I am ignorant about midi.

You Wrote:
"6. Record and edit/finish a midi performance in one go (just that track, not the entire song). Then record the audio version. That way you'll always have THAT sound as well as the midi performance if you do need to change something (but you'll need to find the sound again, obviously)."

THAT sounds much more to my liking (and ability). Laying down tracks, one at a time, and storing them until I am ready to lay down the next track. Being able to play them back, while overlaying another part, first in practice, and then recording them to another track. And so forth.

You Wrote:
"I hope this doesn't sound too complicated for you."

Ha! Talk about an understatement. Honestly, I think language is the major barrier. You guys say "VST" and I have to go to google. Kinda like getting off a boat in Singapore. They understand each other perfectly. To me it would sound like you threw a handful of silverware down the sidewalk. "Ting, tong, boing, ching."

You Wrote:
"One thing about your workflow struck me, that is that you are expecting to record multiple combis. You can do this, but only as audio. (Edit) The usual solution is to do exactly what you did with the portastudio - record a combi on a stereo audio track.

Yes! That's what I want to do. Whether I use a digital mixer, a DAW, or record inside the Kronos itself. These are methods, one maybe faster, one cleaner, one easier to manipulate. But the "purpose" is to lay down tracks, with each track having the option to be a combi or a single instrument. I believe my ear is good enough to add IFX to each track as I go, but with the digital mixer I could tweak that later, if necessary. I assume the DAW would allow for that as well.

Again, I really appreciate the input from everyone.

[SanderXpander]

If you're comfortable with using a hardware audio recorder already, don't worry too much. You'll get there with a DAW. Like you say, you can initially consider it a replacement for the recorder, and add features as you go along.

The most important thing to realize is that MIDI is not audio. MIDI is a digital communication language designed to let two instruments communicate. This data can be recorded and interpreted. It is a wonderful thing but also a very old standard with many limitations that may frustrate the modern "unlimited" approach that DAWs have. You can take it one step at a time though. Most DAWs come with some fx and instruments so you can experiment until you feel ready to expand. Feel free to ask questions as you're discovering things. Many DAWs also have their own forums with users that can help you get started. I use Sonar myself and the active forum is definitely a huge boon to that platform.

[jeremykeys]

I think that it all really depends on your needs. I used to do all of my recording with just the Kronos.
Here is an example of a song I recorded doing everything on the Kronos. It might not be your cup of tea music wise but you can certainly see and hear that the Kronos is a very capable machine.
https://soundcloud.com/jeremykeys/01-shoot-for-the-moon-3

Nowadays I use a DAW Cubase Artist 7.5. I'm probably going to update but I'm going to wait until there is a sale on the update price. I'm using a Windows based PC, 16 gig of ram, a 250 gig solid state drive and a 1T drive.
One thing to know about using Cubase is that it often doesn't like to work with virus protection or so I've been told. This means that it NEVER EVER goes online. The artist level of Cubase is cheaper and doesn't have all of the features as the Pro one but since it's just me in the studio I don't feel there is a need for me to go to that level. I'm also using A Psesonus Studiolive 16-4-2 mixer as my audio interface. A lot of people go with something small but I like to have everything easily available so that I don't have to go changing cables a lot.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask! We're all here to help!
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats!

[jeremykeys]

I also forgot to mention that there is a Cubase bersion for the iPad called Cubasis. I have played around with it a little bit but I really don't knwo just how good it is because even though it's technically my iPad, it's very difficult to get it out of my wife's hands if she's on Facebook or playing Candy Crush.
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats!

[4GodnWV]

Sander,

You Wrote:
"The most important thing to realize is that MIDI is not audio."

I think I understand the difference. When I build a combi I have to set the timbres I want to Gch so that I can play those sounds from the keyboard. The result I hear is the 'audio' output of several "programs".

Behind the curtain the MIDI is saying "Hey, he pushed down C2 at x velocity, held it for 2 seconds, and then released it." It also says "access bank A - program number 001".

If I understand correctly, I can record all that MIDI data, store my recording, and recall it when I need it. I am guessing that if I had that MIDI file stored on a PC, I could unplug the Kronos, plug in a Roland, and the MIDI file would perform the same event, accessing whatever bank and program the control number corresponded to on the Roland.

At this point, I am content to allow all that stuff to happen behind the curtain, if possible. My interest, is in building a combi with multiple timbres, layers, splits, and velocities, and playing a passage on the keyboard. I do it all the time, live. I am blissfully unaware of the magic of MIDI working behind the curtain. I just hear the 'audio' output of Kronos L/R main outs.

To achieve my goal of producing a Christmas CD I need to record that 'audio' on 1 track of some recording device, and then add additional tracks as needed. If I understand your previous statements, using a DAW for that purpose would not much different that using a digital mixer, other than using the USB port out of the Kronos to connect with the DAW in my PC.

Here's where it gets really shaky for me. If I use Kronos' onboard sequencer to record a passage am I just recording a MIDI file, and not audio? I keep hearing different posters suggest that I can somehow convert that MIDI data to an audio file. Am I correct that Kronos has a 16 track sequencer that records 16 tracks of MIDI data? And I can use those 'tracks' to record the 'individual' timbre data in a combi? Up to 16, correct?

Now, can I convert that MIDI file to audio and record it on just 1 track of the audio recorder within Kronos, eliminating the need for either a digital mixer or a DAW? Or, if a combi has 8 timbres, using 8 tracks of the sequencer, does it require 8 tracks of the 'audio' recorder to convert from MIDI to audio?

Not sure I said that right, hope you can understand my feeble attempt to communicate in this unfamiliar language.

Tia, 4God

[4GodnWV]

Jeremy,

You have certainly proved your point that Kronos can handle multi-track recording, with or without a DAW.

Not sure how many tracks you recorded there, but perhaps you could address the question I asked Sander as well.

If a combi has 8 timbres, using up 8 tracks of the sequencer, does it also require 8 tracks of the audio recorder to convert from MIDI to audio?

For that matter, do I even need the sequencer? Can I just route the output to one channel of the Kronos 16 track recorder instead of sending it to the main outputs of the Kronos?

I assume I listen to playback of ch 1 while laying down a track on ch 2 etc etc? Not sure how else you could have done it.

[4GodnWV]

Jeremy,

Alas, my iPad gets used for too many things. No way I'd connect it to my Kronos. Dedicated PC coming for that.

[SanderXpander]

In the Kronos sequencer there are 16 midi tracks and 16 audio tracks (mono, so eight stereo pairs). You can record 16 playing midi tracks to a pair of audio tracks if you want. Obviously you then lose the capability to adjust the mix of the individual channels. In the screen where you normally work (where you pick which program goes on which track etc) you're only recording midi. The audio track part of the sequencer doesn't have program selection, obviously.

So yes, you can do both on Kronos. If you do a lot of audio recording your disk will fill up. A mono audio track at 48KHz, 24 bit is about 6MB per minute. Times sixteen (tracks) times 4 (minutes) that's 384MB for a four minute song with 16 tracks.

[4GodnWV]

SanderXpander,

I think I've got it. Thank you for taking to time to explain it to me. @ 400 MB per song (assuming I'd use all 16 audio tracks) I can easily store 10-12 songs for my CD.

Knowing I CAN do it encourages me to begin the process. I still plan on purchasing a PC and downloading several DAW's for review. Still interested in NI products. But, as you mentioned, I can grow into these. In the interim, I can learn to record and store MIDI files using the sequencer, learn to convert them to audio, learn to store a completed song on a zip stick, etc etc.

I can't tell everyone how much I appreciate all the input. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions, but for now, I think it's time to push some buttons.

[QuiRobinez]

[Bertotti]

It is nice to have access to both pattern and linear workflows, because I have a Mac and had masculine I use Logic Pro and masculine. I have been curious about Abelton but for my hobby it is just to expensive.